Why is the Merc a lemon this year?
Discussion
a 'bad' car (due to either handling or reliability) & a fast car aren't necessarily mutually exclusive ...see Irvine's comments on how bad the F310 was (yet it won 3 races & Ferrari finished 2nd in the WCC)
reason the W13 is a bad car? ...as usual, probably not a simple single issue, but multiple issues- with lack of enough accurate wind tunnel data & the FIA simplifying whats allowed with suspension being my top guesses, with a budget cap exacerbating their ability to fix things quickly
reason the W13 is a bad car? ...as usual, probably not a simple single issue, but multiple issues- with lack of enough accurate wind tunnel data & the FIA simplifying whats allowed with suspension being my top guesses, with a budget cap exacerbating their ability to fix things quickly
Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 21st June 13:02
In years gone by, Mercedes would have flexed their bottomless budget and got past this issue a long time ago.
I don't align to the thought that the "size zero" concept is flawed, however I do think that Mercedes have taken longer than they'd have liked to get it to work.
With active suspension managing the ride height at the rear, I think that Mercedes' concept would be smashing the timing sheets and corner speeds, however currently the rules don't permit that technology, and the harmonics of the suspension, tyres, floor and the resulting height oscillations is a challenge too far, to solve quickly.
I think that the long and smooth nature of Silverstone and Austria (I'll pay a million pounds to the first person who ever sees Toto refer to it as the "Red Bull Ring") will mask the problem, and show strong pace for Mercedes.
The compression at the bottom of the hill at Eau Rouge will be interesting for many teams and drivers.
I don't align to the thought that the "size zero" concept is flawed, however I do think that Mercedes have taken longer than they'd have liked to get it to work.
With active suspension managing the ride height at the rear, I think that Mercedes' concept would be smashing the timing sheets and corner speeds, however currently the rules don't permit that technology, and the harmonics of the suspension, tyres, floor and the resulting height oscillations is a challenge too far, to solve quickly.
I think that the long and smooth nature of Silverstone and Austria (I'll pay a million pounds to the first person who ever sees Toto refer to it as the "Red Bull Ring") will mask the problem, and show strong pace for Mercedes.
The compression at the bottom of the hill at Eau Rouge will be interesting for many teams and drivers.
Muzzer79 said:
1. It's not a "lemon"
They are third in the constructor's championship. George Russell is fourth in the Driver's championship and hasn't finished lower than 5th.
They clearly have the third fastest car. A lot of teams would kill to have the third fastest car.
2. Performance is cyclical. One cannot dominate forever.
This has been true since the dawn of Formula One. Look at history:
Red Bull couldn't dominate past 2013
Ferrari couldn't dominate past 2004
Williams couldn't dominate past 1997
McLaren couldn't dominate past 1991
And so on...
It takes a combination of so many things to create the fastest F1 car and win titles with it. Frankly, it's amazing that Mercedes have managed it for the last 8 years - that's unprecedented.
It consistently surprises me how people seem to think that they were just going to continue winning unabated - it's never happened before, why should it now?
Exactly this.They are third in the constructor's championship. George Russell is fourth in the Driver's championship and hasn't finished lower than 5th.
They clearly have the third fastest car. A lot of teams would kill to have the third fastest car.
2. Performance is cyclical. One cannot dominate forever.
This has been true since the dawn of Formula One. Look at history:
Red Bull couldn't dominate past 2013
Ferrari couldn't dominate past 2004
Williams couldn't dominate past 1997
McLaren couldn't dominate past 1991
And so on...
It takes a combination of so many things to create the fastest F1 car and win titles with it. Frankly, it's amazing that Mercedes have managed it for the last 8 years - that's unprecedented.
It consistently surprises me how people seem to think that they were just going to continue winning unabated - it's never happened before, why should it now?
It's a sport.
They have a concept that they believe would be at least 0.5 seconds faster than everyone else. If it worked.
The concept worked in the wind tunnel and computer simulations. In the real world it does not..............
So they did not "fail" as such but the reality is not matching the computers and wind tunnels.... If they did not have a budget cap I expect the answer would have been fixed by now. But such is life.
The concept worked in the wind tunnel and computer simulations. In the real world it does not..............
So they did not "fail" as such but the reality is not matching the computers and wind tunnels.... If they did not have a budget cap I expect the answer would have been fixed by now. But such is life.
They took a gamble of wind tunnel/CFD data and it hasn’t been reflected in on track behaviour, I honestly thinks it’s a simple as that.
As to why it hasn’t been fixed? I think it’s a combination of the cost cap and limited testing. In seasons gone by they’d have thrown the sink at it in order to get it sorted but they’ve had that option taken away, which is why progress has been made but at a much slower pace that previously seen.
I’m also not buying that their out of this season. Maybe for drivers but if Ferrari and Red Bull carrying on being this erratic I can see Mercs consistency getting them the constructors gong.
As to why it hasn’t been fixed? I think it’s a combination of the cost cap and limited testing. In seasons gone by they’d have thrown the sink at it in order to get it sorted but they’ve had that option taken away, which is why progress has been made but at a much slower pace that previously seen.
I’m also not buying that their out of this season. Maybe for drivers but if Ferrari and Red Bull carrying on being this erratic I can see Mercs consistency getting them the constructors gong.
vaud said:
Active is a bad idea and anyway would take a long time to develop; I doubt it would be ready for 2023 even if they changed the regs now.
Agreed, and hope it doesn't return.It's method of actuation and technology will be irrelevant to the road, and will be more difficult for the smaller teams to perfect, and therefore increase the performance gap through the grid.
MustangGT said:
Lots of good reasons given, I'll add another.
I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
https://www.formu1a.uno/f1-2022-mercedes-will-have...I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
True, but many have commented that it didn't show in the tunnel for many teams.
2ZZ Top said:
Oilchange said:
They'll bounce back
I see what you did there.MustangGT said:
Lots of good reasons given, I'll add another.
I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
Well if that's the case, and if they poached many from Merc, then they clearly have the advantage.I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
MustangGT said:
Lots of good reasons given, I'll add another.
I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
Redbull managed OK on 75%! I believe Mercedes, as WCCs, were only allowed 70% of the wind tunnel time other teams were allowed under the rules to develop the next year's car.
Anyway as above, the Mercedes is hardly a lemon in terms of performance, although it does look thoroughly unpleasant to drive and extremely difficult to set up. I'm sure they'll get there at some point, I still think Mercedes have one of the best team structures/ethoses (is that the correct plural of ethos?) on the grid and their facilities are second-to-none.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 21st June 18:55
mat205125 said:
vaud said:
Active is a bad idea and anyway would take a long time to develop; I doubt it would be ready for 2023 even if they changed the regs now.
Agreed, and hope it doesn't return.It's method of actuation and technology will be irrelevant to the road, and will be more difficult for the smaller teams to perfect, and therefore increase the performance gap through the grid.
A cheaper solution would be to allow an extra test at another circuit to allow for better correlation? Or some nice bumpy runway straight line tests?
vaud said:
Also it would increase cornering energy which would mean reviewing crash structures, no doubt making the cars even heavier.
A cheaper solution would be to allow an extra test at another circuit to allow for better correlation? Or some nice bumpy runway straight line tests?
Now there's a cost cap to stop teams taking the piss, couldn't they just remove the hard limits on belt and air speed in the wind tunnel? A cheaper solution would be to allow an extra test at another circuit to allow for better correlation? Or some nice bumpy runway straight line tests?
kambites said:
vaud said:
kambites said:
Now there's a cost cap to stop teams taking the piss, couldn't they just remove the hard limits on belt and air speed in the wind tunnel?
Can all the teams tunnels achieve race speeds? (I don’t know much about wind tunnels)At 2:14, James Allison says you are only allowed to move at 30mm/s in the wind tunnel.
They have been hurt by the suspension simplification. It is widely accepted that Mercedes were years in front of everybody with the trick hydraulic suspension, remote gas springs, etc.
Consider that if a car could work with zero suspension, then a car cannot porpoise, because there is nothing for the car to move up and down on. They have fixed the porpoising with small aero changes and, I suspect, running the car in a massively stiff set up. The problem with that is it cannot cope with bumpy surfaces and kerbs.
Consider that if a car could work with zero suspension, then a car cannot porpoise, because there is nothing for the car to move up and down on. They have fixed the porpoising with small aero changes and, I suspect, running the car in a massively stiff set up. The problem with that is it cannot cope with bumpy surfaces and kerbs.
One interesting thing is how different the car is to all the others - yet nearly has the pace of the top two teams.
That to me strongly suggests their radical approach is basically working, it's generating huge levels of GE. But not in a controllable way.
For all we know they understand the problem at this stage but simply can't fix it without a new car - that can happen when in season development is limited after a major regs change.
That to me strongly suggests their radical approach is basically working, it's generating huge levels of GE. But not in a controllable way.
For all we know they understand the problem at this stage but simply can't fix it without a new car - that can happen when in season development is limited after a major regs change.
All the big teams that have dominated at various times over the last 40 years Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren have stopped winning WDC for one reason or another, it's expected and inevitable you just don't go on winning forever.
Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
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