Masi gone from F1

Masi gone from F1

Author
Discussion

wpa1975

4,039 posts

94 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Hungrymc said:
Am sure this has been the plan all along, shuffle out of the lime light, let the dust settle then get rid.

I think it’s all been said, his behaviour at AD was appalling. Even the contrasting tone he took with the teams (one of which was only pushing him to apply the normal rules). He had to go, the FIA just wanted ti do it in a way that would avoid turning the heat up on the whole thing.
Agreed

Drew106

1,160 posts

125 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
PhilAsia said:
Chamon_Lee said:
paulguitar said:
Frimley111R said:
Jasandjules said:
Looks like a pay off to me... Still, at least he is gone, pretty much cements Max's title as being false.
Indeed but it doesn't hand it to the rightful winner frown
The rightful winner will never be 2021 WDC 'officially', but anyone with at least a cursory understanding of racing knows the truth. There will forever be some who are okay with the debacle because it gave the WDC* to 'their' driver, but that's a report on their own standards of integrity. And not a good one.
This quite nicely sums up the difference between the two camps. I doesn’t matter to me what drivers were involved it’s the injustice that happened which felt so wrong.

Personally it’s baffling when people say well it was allowed so it’s ok or there was nothing wrong at all with it. Shows more about them than people realise.
Ivan Fernandez, running in second place, realised the leader Abel Mutai had stopped before the finish line. He did something he could live with as a "sportsman" with integrity.

That's a nice thing to see. Kudos to him.

Muzzer79

6,661 posts

167 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
jm doc said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
kambites said:
jm doc said:
Explain how he is a scapegoat? Are you saying the FIA told him to "fix" the AD race for Max to win? :
I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to to everything he could to make sure the race finished under green-flag conditions and/or that if there was a way to make the race close at the end to take it.
There was a way to do that within the rules. What he did was stop the race for everyone except Hamilton and Max, at the direct request of Horner and completely outwith the rules. I still think there should be a criminal investigation. It's happened in football at the very highest levels, Champions league finals with referees who have been bribed.
Whilst I agree that he has no place in the sport, let’s keep our feet on the ground……criminal investigation?

There’s absolutely no suggestion anywhere of anything other than incompetence on Masi’s part, potentially also weakness in respect of being influenced by competitors. Comparing it with corruption is false, with the information on hand.

To use your football analogy, he was a referee who called a penalty kick outrageously wrongly, after being influenced by a couple of players on the pitch. He was not a referee taking brown envelopes.
Some quite breathtaking assumptions in there.

This wasn't incompetence, he knew the rules intimately, he broke them. Just on betting alone, there were millions of pounds lost to innocent punters, (not me!), never mind the money spent by the the team attempting to win. Why would someone deliberately do that? Corruption cannot be ruled out and should be rooted out. As I said, it's happened before at the very highest levels of sport, why would F1 be immune?

There are several football analogies, none of which involve making a wrong judgement call which is the typical claim by Masi apologists. An example might be changing the rules towards the end of a game, deciding for instance to let the team that was losing have 12 men on the pitch for the last five minutes and the other team being reduced to eight.

This was an extreme event and should have been investigated by the appropriate authorities.

Breathtaking assumptions??

Show me the evidence of any corruption - Where is his motive, where is his method, where is his gain?

The fact is that he allowed himself to be influenced and made a huge mistake. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

The incompetence was breathtaking, but talk of intentional result-rigging is tin-foil-hattery.


PhilAsia

1,340 posts

55 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
kambites said:
jm doc said:
Explain how he is a scapegoat? Are you saying the FIA told him to "fix" the AD race for Max to win? :
I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to to everything he could to make sure the race finished under green-flag conditions and/or that if there was a way to make the race close at the end to take it.
There was a way to do that within the rules. What he did was stop the race for everyone except Hamilton and Max, at the direct request of Horner and completely outwith the rules. I still think there should be a criminal investigation. It's happened in football at the very highest levels, Champions league finals with referees who have been bribed.
Whilst I agree that he has no place in the sport, let’s keep our feet on the ground……criminal investigation?

There’s absolutely no suggestion anywhere of anything other than incompetence on Masi’s part, potentially also weakness in respect of being influenced by competitors. Comparing it with corruption is false, with the information on hand.

To use your football analogy, he was a referee who called a penalty kick outrageously wrongly, after being influenced by a couple of players on the pitch. He was not a referee taking brown envelopes.
Some quite breathtaking assumptions in there.

This wasn't incompetence, he knew the rules intimately, he broke them. Just on betting alone, there were millions of pounds lost to innocent punters, (not me!), never mind the money spent by the the team attempting to win. Why would someone deliberately do that? Corruption cannot be ruled out and should be rooted out. As I said, it's happened before at the very highest levels of sport, why would F1 be immune?

There are several football analogies, none of which involve making a wrong judgement call which is the typical claim by Masi apologists. An example might be changing the rules towards the end of a game, deciding for instance to let the team that was losing have 12 men on the pitch for the last five minutes and the other team being reduced to eight.

This was an extreme event and should have been investigated by the appropriate authorities.

Breathtaking assumptions??

Show me the evidence of any corruption - Where is his motive, where is his method, where is his gain?

The fact is that he allowed himself to be influenced and made a huge mistake. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

The incompetence was breathtaking, but talk of intentional result-rigging is tin-foil-hattery.
I do not think anyone can categorically state wtf Masi's motives were. But it should be clear to everyone that he certainly knew he was flouting the rules though, as he had vehemently defended them a year previously.


Byker28i

44,242 posts

197 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
It'll be forever known as a tainted season, a gifted WDC, instead of what could have been an incredible marketing opportunity with Mercs fight back, clinching the WDC by a point etc...
But they'd decided at the start of the year Merc had won enough...

HighwayStar

Original Poster:

3,708 posts

124 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
PhilAsia said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
kambites said:
jm doc said:
Explain how he is a scapegoat? Are you saying the FIA told him to "fix" the AD race for Max to win? :
I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to to everything he could to make sure the race finished under green-flag conditions and/or that if there was a way to make the race close at the end to take it.
There was a way to do that within the rules. What he did was stop the race for everyone except Hamilton and Max, at the direct request of Horner and completely outwith the rules. I still think there should be a criminal investigation. It's happened in football at the very highest levels, Champions league finals with referees who have been bribed.
Whilst I agree that he has no place in the sport, let’s keep our feet on the ground……criminal investigation?

There’s absolutely no suggestion anywhere of anything other than incompetence on Masi’s part, potentially also weakness in respect of being influenced by competitors. Comparing it with corruption is false, with the information on hand.

To use your football analogy, he was a referee who called a penalty kick outrageously wrongly, after being influenced by a couple of players on the pitch. He was not a referee taking brown envelopes.
Some quite breathtaking assumptions in there.

This wasn't incompetence, he knew the rules intimately, he broke them. Just on betting alone, there were millions of pounds lost to innocent punters, (not me!), never mind the money spent by the the team attempting to win. Why would someone deliberately do that? Corruption cannot be ruled out and should be rooted out. As I said, it's happened before at the very highest levels of sport, why would F1 be immune?

There are several football analogies, none of which involve making a wrong judgement call which is the typical claim by Masi apologists. An example might be changing the rules towards the end of a game, deciding for instance to let the team that was losing have 12 men on the pitch for the last five minutes and the other team being reduced to eight.

This was an extreme event and should have been investigated by the appropriate authorities.

Breathtaking assumptions??

Show me the evidence of any corruption - Where is his motive, where is his method, where is his gain?

The fact is that he allowed himself to be influenced and made a huge mistake. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

The incompetence was breathtaking, but talk of intentional result-rigging is tin-foil-hattery.
I do not think anyone can categorically state wtf Masi's motives were. But it should be clear to everyone that he certainly knew he was flouting the rules though, as he had vehemently defended them a year previously.

That there is always the clincher for me in terms of he was well acquainted with the rules and procedures when the safety car is in play. To defend his part on the AD fiasco and be satisfied with the outcome is about something else… our man became WDC*, we’ll take it anyway it happened. Or anyone but Lewis winning it yet again. Or for the show/Netflix. If it was for the show, IMO Lewis winning it at AD in the last race when 5 races earlier he appeared dead and buried championship wise… a brilliant drive where even Horner had accepted their challenge was over. It would still have been great for the show. Instead we have what we have… Max WDC*. Whatever anyone says, get over it. Move on. Masi’s role in Max’s WDC will always be controversial, remembered and brought up. If Masi was on point he’d still be there. He wasn’t and isn’t.

mat205125

16,682 posts

193 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
I still think he is a scapegoat and did exactly as he was told, hopefully now he has gone he will spill the beans

I wonder if they have paid him off
Exactly this.

He was abused by team principles with an understandable appetite to steer scenarios to their agendas

The race director role was in a position where it was first and foremost there to ensure the safe operation of meetings, however always with a pushed agenda to put on a show ...... there was never a single decision that was ever going to meet with universal applause and support, which also remains the case today, and which will be the case forevermore irrespective of who is appointed to make judgement calls.

He became a Patsy at the end of 2021, and it's taken less than six months for the split-role team approach to be inadequate and unsustainable due to the lack of a single point of accountability, which Masi and Whiting offered in the role.

Whilst it's a controversial opinion, especially if you're a Mercedes or Lewis fan, I actually think that Masi did a reasonable job in the face of an impossible set of situations through the year.

I don't mean that in the same way as those defending Bo-Jo as "he's doing his best", and rather that I can't see anyone having done better.

The big thing that should have been nipped in the bud very early in 2021 was the Toto and Christian access to offload their opinions of what should happen every five minutes, and the toys-out-the-pram balling that temper tantrum Toto released should have been reprimanded severely ...... In any "real world" situation, this is bullying, plain and simple

entropy

4,789 posts

183 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Nova Gyna said:
What’s Vettel got to do with it?
He walked out of the drivers briefing in Austria. Not exactly a ringing endorsement that things have improved post-Masi, is it?

HustleRussell

22,018 posts

140 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
entropy said:
Nova Gyna said:
What’s Vettel got to do with it?
He walked out of the drivers briefing in Austria. Not exactly a ringing endorsement that things have improved post-Masi, is it?
What do stewarding decisions have to do with the race director(s)?

vdn

8,700 posts

183 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Exactly this.

He was abused by team principles with an understandable appetite to steer scenarios to their agendas

The race director role was in a position where it was first and foremost there to ensure the safe operation of meetings, however always with a pushed agenda to put on a show ...... there was never a single decision that was ever going to meet with universal applause and support, which also remains the case today, and which will be the case forevermore irrespective of who is appointed to make judgement calls.

He became a Patsy at the end of 2021, and it's taken less than six months for the split-role team approach to be inadequate and unsustainable due to the lack of a single point of accountability, which Masi and Whiting offered in the role.

Whilst it's a controversial opinion, especially if you're a Mercedes or Lewis fan, I actually think that Masi did a reasonable job in the face of an impossible set of situations through the year.

I don't mean that in the same way as those defending Bo-Jo as "he's doing his best", and rather that I can't see anyone having done better.

The big thing that should have been nipped in the bud very early in 2021 was the Toto and Christian access to offload their opinions of what should happen every five minutes, and the toys-out-the-pram balling that temper tantrum Toto released should have been reprimanded severely ...... In any "real world" situation, this is bullying, plain and simple
"A reasonable job"

rofl

Your standards must be on another planet to most.

entropy

4,789 posts

183 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
What do stewarding decisions have to do with the race director(s)?
Going back to a single RD would help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/62108286

NRS

20,247 posts

181 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
kambites said:
jm doc said:
Explain how he is a scapegoat? Are you saying the FIA told him to "fix" the AD race for Max to win? :
I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to to everything he could to make sure the race finished under green-flag conditions and/or that if there was a way to make the race close at the end to take it.
There was a way to do that within the rules. What he did was stop the race for everyone except Hamilton and Max, at the direct request of Horner and completely outwith the rules. I still think there should be a criminal investigation. It's happened in football at the very highest levels, Champions league finals with referees who have been bribed.
Whilst I agree that he has no place in the sport, let’s keep our feet on the ground……criminal investigation?

There’s absolutely no suggestion anywhere of anything other than incompetence on Masi’s part, potentially also weakness in respect of being influenced by competitors. Comparing it with corruption is false, with the information on hand.

To use your football analogy, he was a referee who called a penalty kick outrageously wrongly, after being influenced by a couple of players on the pitch. He was not a referee taking brown envelopes.
Some quite breathtaking assumptions in there.

This wasn't incompetence, he knew the rules intimately, he broke them. Just on betting alone, there were millions of pounds lost to innocent punters, (not me!), never mind the money spent by the the team attempting to win. Why would someone deliberately do that? Corruption cannot be ruled out and should be rooted out. As I said, it's happened before at the very highest levels of sport, why would F1 be immune?

There are several football analogies, none of which involve making a wrong judgement call which is the typical claim by Masi apologists. An example might be changing the rules towards the end of a game, deciding for instance to let the team that was losing have 12 men on the pitch for the last five minutes and the other team being reduced to eight.

This was an extreme event and should have been investigated by the appropriate authorities.

Breathtaking assumptions??

Show me the evidence of any corruption - Where is his motive, where is his method, where is his gain?

The fact is that he allowed himself to be influenced and made a huge mistake. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

The incompetence was breathtaking, but talk of intentional result-rigging is tin-foil-hattery.
jm doc called for an investigation, he didn't claim he was for sure corrupt. All an investigration is is a way to check that there is no corruption. You'd have a check around, and if for example you discovered his best mate put a £1m bet on Max to win it would be pretty clear evidence. Unless you check it out then you wouldn't know. If you checked and there was no evidence then it would just be incompetence.

jm doc

2,138 posts

212 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
kambites said:
jm doc said:
Explain how he is a scapegoat? Are you saying the FIA told him to "fix" the AD race for Max to win? :
I wouldn't be surprised if he was told to to everything he could to make sure the race finished under green-flag conditions and/or that if there was a way to make the race close at the end to take it.
There was a way to do that within the rules. What he did was stop the race for everyone except Hamilton and Max, at the direct request of Horner and completely outwith the rules. I still think there should be a criminal investigation. It's happened in football at the very highest levels, Champions league finals with referees who have been bribed.
Whilst I agree that he has no place in the sport, let’s keep our feet on the ground……criminal investigation?

There’s absolutely no suggestion anywhere of anything other than incompetence on Masi’s part, potentially also weakness in respect of being influenced by competitors. Comparing it with corruption is false, with the information on hand.

To use your football analogy, he was a referee who called a penalty kick outrageously wrongly, after being influenced by a couple of players on the pitch. He was not a referee taking brown envelopes.
Some quite breathtaking assumptions in there.

This wasn't incompetence, he knew the rules intimately, he broke them. Just on betting alone, there were millions of pounds lost to innocent punters, (not me!), never mind the money spent by the the team attempting to win. Why would someone deliberately do that? Corruption cannot be ruled out and should be rooted out. As I said, it's happened before at the very highest levels of sport, why would F1 be immune?

There are several football analogies, none of which involve making a wrong judgement call which is the typical claim by Masi apologists. An example might be changing the rules towards the end of a game, deciding for instance to let the team that was losing have 12 men on the pitch for the last five minutes and the other team being reduced to eight.

This was an extreme event and should have been investigated by the appropriate authorities.

Breathtaking assumptions??

Show me the evidence of any corruption - Where is his motive, where is his method, where is his gain?

The fact is that he allowed himself to be influenced and made a huge mistake. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

The incompetence was breathtaking, but talk of intentional result-rigging is tin-foil-hattery.
No, he very clearly did not make a "mistake". He knew the rules, he has quoted them unprompted in the past.

This was very simply a person in authority directly influencing the outcome of a worldwide sporting event, at the request of one team and even refusing the direct request of the other team to follow the rules.

This had multi-million pound consequnces for thousands of people.

That is corrupt, until proven otherwise by a full investigation under the auspices of the law.

Simoncelli58

61 posts

44 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Glad he's gone .....but some people here are getting carried away .

He should never have been in a position to make such a ridiculous decision .

Also feel people are forgetting that we are talking about a real person here , not a machine or a committee . I hope his mental health is seriously robust because that is some fall from grace........... Think before you ink .

It's only sport and the F1 machine is in rude health .

Muzzer79

6,661 posts

167 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
jm doc said:
No, he very clearly did not make a "mistake". He knew the rules, he has quoted them unprompted in the past.

This was very simply a person in authority directly influencing the outcome of a worldwide sporting event, at the request of one team and even refusing the direct request of the other team to follow the rules.

This had multi-million pound consequnces for thousands of people.

That is corrupt, until proven otherwise by a full investigation under the auspices of the law.
So, guilty until proven innocent?

scratchchin

Teppic

6,478 posts

237 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Simoncelli58 said:
He should never have been in a position to make such a ridiculous decision.
You’re not wrong.

There was a race in 2020 (I forget which one) where he ended the safety car and allowed racing to resume while marshals were still moving a crashed car towards a gap in the barrier to get it off the track. They were still in the run off area with cars now back to full speed passing them, and that should have been sacked on the spot for that.

mat205125

16,682 posts

193 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Simoncelli58 said:
Glad he's gone .....but some people here are getting carried away .

He should never have been in a position to make such a ridiculous decision .

Also feel people are forgetting that we are talking about a real person here , not a machine or a committee . I hope his mental health is seriously robust because that is some fall from grace........... Think before you ink .

It's only sport and the F1 machine is in rude health .
yes

A human being, in a position that requires very speedy actions and reactions to events unfolding at a rate of knots in front of them, whilst being bombarded by interested parties yelling their points of view or "instructions" from all angles, and with any decision being made under continual scrutiny by those with the benefit of a million replays and sets of professional and amateur eyes who all claim to be impartial, however rarely (if ever) truly are.

The workload bandwidth has been attempted to be resolved with the mixing up and multiple people, however the loss of having a single source of judgement and accountability has been exposed.

Last year was the first year that the "chatter" between Race Director was public, and maybe every director has been blasted by Toto-esq tantrums from all angles for decades, however I doubt it.

Masi and the FIAs collective largest failure was commanding respect and manners from everyone within the paddock.

Whiting was the Rugby referee, who's voice was heard, respected, and never questioned, purely out of respect for the role.

Masi deteriorated in 2021 to being close to a Premiership ref, with Wolfe and Horner being the stroppy primidones falling, pushing, shouting, and shoving, instead of respecting and behaving.

angrymoby

1,938 posts

158 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Teppic said:
You’re not wrong.

There was a race in 2020 (I forget which one) where he ended the safety car and allowed racing to resume while marshals were still moving a crashed car towards a gap in the barrier to get it off the track. They were still in the run off area with cars now back to full speed passing them, and that should have been sacked on the spot for that.
qualifying & Turkey iirc

PhilAsia

1,340 posts

55 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
jm doc said:
No, he very clearly did not make a "mistake". He knew the rules, he has quoted them unprompted in the past.

This was very simply a person in authority directly influencing the outcome of a worldwide sporting event, at the request of one team and even refusing the direct request of the other team to follow the rules.

This had multi-million pound consequnces for thousands of people.

That is corrupt, until proven otherwise by a full investigation under the auspices of the law.
So, guilty until proven innocent?

scratchchin
Normally any indication of wrongdoing would initiate legal action. JM Doc has made some very valid points of obvious violations knowingly perpetrated by Masi.

Legal action would be seeking to prove that Masi's actions were "...corrupt.... if until proven otherwise by a full investigation under the auspices of the law"



angrymoby

1,938 posts

158 months

Wednesday 13th July
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Masi deteriorated in 2021 to being close to a Premiership ref, with Wolfe and Horner being the stroppy primidones falling, pushing, shouting, and shoving, instead of respecting and behaving.
im sure most football referees would quite like to be separated from the players/ managers by being on another pitch & be only contactable via a comms that has an on/off button

stop making excuses for the man