Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[paulguitar]

freedman said:

Mr Pointy said:

And he's still not allowed the same level of equipment just to make sure he knows his place.

Perez is nowhere near as good as Verstappen so his equipment is utterly irrelevant

How is his equipment 'utterly irrelevant?

[moffspeed]

moffspeed said:

As Ferrari did at Monza in 2001 after 9/11 :

Sorry couldn’t post a photo last night :




Also a reminder that F1 car design has not changed radically in 2 decades. The same time span as between a Lotus 72 and a Talbot Lago….

[freedman]

paulguitar said:

How is his equipment 'utterly irrelevant?

Its irrelevant as it makes no difference to the outcome, Perez doesn't have the ability to beat MV in a straight fight, irrespective of equipment

[suffolk009]

honda_exige said:

Quoted verbatim from The Express no less! Last paragraph

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1666710/P...

The Express, not exactly a towering example of accurate journalism.

[Sandpit Steve]

Teddy Lop said:

The quality of journalism today... Yet people still believe what they print!

I don't want to be a downer but the one-man max show is losing my interest. Shades of the early noughties for me. People complained about the Merc domination but was it ever as certain?

The test of journalism is to read a story on a subject where you have some knowledge, and see how accurate (or otherwise) they are. Me, I work in IT and take an interest in aviation - two subjects on which it’s pretty much impossible to find a totally accurate article in a major newspaper. Now think of all the other subjects, on which we are not knowledgable, and rely on that same media to inform us.

Yes, sadly the one-man Max show is less than interesting, as was the one-man Seb show a decade ago, and the one-man Michael show a decade before that. At least Mercedes spent their dominant years turning up with two identical cars and letting their drivers fight it out on track. It was only last season, with a clear external threat, that Valtteri worked as the number two.

[RB Will]

Teddy Lop said:

People complained about the Merc domination but was it ever as certain?

yes.

2014-2016 Ham / Ros they won 80% of the races. for 2016 it would have been 95% if they hadn't taken each other out at Barca and given Max the win.
2014-2016 there was only 1 race (of 59) where a Merc wasn't on pole or won the race.

2016-2021 went downhill a bit bringing the whole Merc era to a win rate of 67%. 2016-21 there were 25 races with no win or pole by Merc.

2022 so far is a Redbull win rate of 73% but we know that is augmented by the Fezzas doing silly things rather than Red bull having an out and out dominant car.

[paulguitar]

freedman said:

paulguitar said:

How is his equipment 'utterly irrelevant?

Its irrelevant as it makes no difference to the outcome, Perez doesn't have the ability to beat MV in a straight fight, irrespective of equipment

He's out qualified and beaten him earlier this season, hasn't he? I should think to Perez getting equal equipment it is very relevant!

[honda_exige]

48Valves said:

F20CN16 said:

Teddy Lop said:

I don't want to be a downer but the one-man max show is losing my interest. Shades of the early noughties for me. People complained about the Merc domination but was it ever as certain?

People forget easily. There was a title challenge from Nico between 2014-2016 (obviously winning one of those), then Vettel challenged well in 2017-2018 until 2/3s through those seasons. But 2019-2020 was just Hamilton romping to titles without too much bother.

At least there was some challenge and Nico was allowed to race. Perez was nerffed the second he looked like he might pose a challenge to Max.

And Bottas was nerfed via 1 Yr contracts before he'd even turned a wheel after Toto said that he never wanted a repeat of the Nico/Lewis stress.

But neither Bottas nor Perez ever had a hope of beating their teammates regardless.

RB had Seb/Webber and Merc had Lewis/Nico, both teams resolved to not allow those situations to repeat. George is only getting a somewhat fairer crack of the whip as Lewis is in his twilight years.

[vaud]

honda_exige said:

But neither Bottas nor Perez ever had a hope of beating their teammates regardless.

Both are pragmatic though I think - get to drive a leading car, mop up some points, have the odd win and support the clear #1 while chalking up a very healthy bank balance. Massa and Barrichello did the same. I think some drivers can adapt to it and know they are not the next Senna.

[Jasandjules]

freedman said:

Its irrelevant as it makes no difference to the outcome, Perez doesn't have the ability to beat MV in a straight fight, irrespective of equipment

Probably not. But unless they are both given the same equipment, we won't know, will we?

[PhilAsia]

I had a slight suspicion that 2022 would favour the ground effect guru Newey at Red Bull. Not sure where that suspicion came from but it seems to hold true. After the extended period to Spa, allowing teams to "make adjustments" to conform. any hope of any challenge to RB went out of the window.

Any challenge to Max by Perez is moot. He is not at Max's level and RB seems to just expect him to curl up and die, whilst becoming a rolling road block and test mule.

Prior to the just luverleh plank adjustment extension things looked grim. After, the WDC and WCC is just a foregone conclusion.

The aforementioned just confirm how unnecessary the Masi 2021 season was. It was not Max or RBs fault, but they will now have their deserved day and, putting my head on the chopping block, I do not see any change for many seasons to come. I have a feeling that RBR and Max will be the new Lewis/MB, but with Max having no quality teammate competition. I anticipate a clear run on a pretty pink carpet to 8.

Not knocking RB or Max as both are stellar in 2022. But I do recall vividly the lengths of desperation we were witness to in 2021, when the outcome was not courtesy of a following wind, in order to secure their first with Max.

I hope I am wrong.

Edited by PhilAsia on Friday 9th September 10:32

Edited by PhilAsia on Friday 9th September 10:34

[Jasandjules]

PhilAsia said:

I hope I am wrong.

You are. Mercedes is simply too good a team to not get their act together, if not next season then the one after (I expect it will be next season frankly). They may not dominate, but it will be a six way fight for poles/wins... (Ok Ferrari will still throw some away, unless they get back to the way they were during the Schumacher domination)

[mat205125]

RB Will said:

yes.

2014-2016 Ham / Ros they won 80% of the races. for 2016 it would have been 95% if they hadn't taken each other out at Barca and given Max the win.
2014-2016 there was only 1 race (of 59) where a Merc wasn't on pole or won the race.

2016-2021 went downhill a bit bringing the whole Merc era to a win rate of 67%. 2016-21 there were 25 races with no win or pole by Merc.

2022 so far is a Redbull win rate of 73% but we know that is augmented by the Fezzas doing silly things rather than Red bull having an out and out dominant car.

Good summary, and some powerful stats there.

[PhilAsia]

Jasandjules said:

PhilAsia said:

I hope I am wrong.

You are. Mercedes is simply too good a team to not get their act together, if not next season then the one after (I expect it will be next season frankly). They may not dominate, but it will be a six way fight for poles/wins... (Ok Ferrari will still throw some away, unless they get back to the way they were during the Schumacher domination)

Good. I hope that I am. For everyone's sake. I feel better already. Thank you! (sorry, the drugs wore off earlier, and your dulcet tones and reminder of how good F1 can be put the positive aura back )

[paulguitar]

mat205125 said:

RB Will said:

yes.

2014-2016 Ham / Ros they won 80% of the races. for 2016 it would have been 95% if they hadn't taken each other out at Barca and given Max the win.
2014-2016 there was only 1 race (of 59) where a Merc wasn't on pole or won the race.

2016-2021 went downhill a bit bringing the whole Merc era to a win rate of 67%. 2016-21 there were 25 races with no win or pole by Merc.

2022 so far is a Redbull win rate of 73% but we know that is augmented by the Fezzas doing silly things rather than Red bull having an out and out dominant car.

Good summary, and some powerful stats there.

The big difference is that from 2014-17 Hamilton had a serious contender in Rosberg alongside him in the team. Verstappen has Perez, who realistically has only really been a journeyman, albeit with some occasional flashes of excellence.

Also, there were a couple of seasons not unlike this one, where the Mercedes was not a dominant car, but Ferrari and Vettel between them aided Merc in securing the titles (along with Hamilton's exceptional performances).

[carl_w]

paulguitar said:

The big difference is that from 2014-17 Hamilton had a serious contender in Rosberg alongside him in the team.

Nico retired in 2016.

[paulguitar]

carl_w said:

paulguitar said:

The big difference is that from 2014-17 Hamilton had a serious contender in Rosberg alongside him in the team.

Nico retired in 2016.

2014, 2015, and 2016.

NR did indeed run away at the end of '16.

[PhilAsia]

paulguitar said:

mat205125 said:

RB Will said:

yes.

2014-2016 Ham / Ros they won 80% of the races. for 2016 it would have been 95% if they hadn't taken each other out at Barca and given Max the win.
2014-2016 there was only 1 race (of 59) where a Merc wasn't on pole or won the race.

2016-2021 went downhill a bit bringing the whole Merc era to a win rate of 67%. 2016-21 there were 25 races with no win or pole by Merc.

2022 so far is a Redbull win rate of 73% but we know that is augmented by the Fezzas doing silly things rather than Red bull having an out and out dominant car.

Good summary, and some powerful stats there.

The big difference is that from 2014-17 Hamilton had a serious contender in Rosberg alongside him in the team. Verstappen has Perez, who realistically has only really been a journeyman, albeit with some occasional flashes of excellence.

Also, there were a couple of seasons not unlike this one, where the Mercedes was not a dominant car, but Ferrari and Vettel between them aided Merc in securing the titles (along with Hamilton's exceptional performances).

Good summary. Well cleared up!

[RB Will]

It does kinda highlight that Rosberg is given far too little credit for his ability. Seems he is night and day above Bottas.
Would have been interesting to see 2017-21 with him in the car still. Could have made some seriously close 3-4 way title fights

[SturdyHSV]

PhilAsia said:

I anticipate a clear run on a pretty pink carpet to 8.

I hope I am wrong.

Even as someone who works at RB and thus may be more hopeful than most about the future, I think you were experiencing a touch of hysteria with that assessment

I don't think there are any clear runs to multiple championships in F1, let alone 8! What Mercedes (and Lewis) have achieved is unprecedented in the sport, and is unprecedented for good reason, it's bloody hard!

Sounds like you're back on a positive note now though, good to hear

I for one sincerely hope Lewis can keep his win every season record as I think it actually stands out more than the unbelievable amount of wins and titles etc.

I think the 'domination' claim is a bit over the top if I'm honest, especially compared to the peak of 'the Mercedes era'. We've all discussed at length just how many wins and points Ferrari (and sadly, Charles himself) have actively thrown away this year, so for me, reducing the complexity / nuance of the season down to a simple comparison of number of wins isn't representative of the level of competition Ferrari (and now Mercedes) have brought to the table.