Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[C70R]

heebeegeetee said:

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Lewis had Rosberg for three of his titles, Alonso almost certainly cost Lewis one title (although possibly none of us wants to see a rookie walk into F1 and win the wdc at his first attempt), plus during the years when a championship wasn't in the offing he still had to battle Button.

Yes he had the best car (and certainly was in the best team) but I think had Lewis been at Ferrari for those 'cheat engine' years he may well have scored two championships for them.

Bottas could take pole from Lewis at Silverstone too. Bottas was quick to begin with, but I think a driver like Lewis just wears his team mates down in the end. Certainly, Nico wasn't prepared to go through another year like he'd had.

Right. All that is fair. But it's absolutely unfair to describe the Max/RB combo as "more of a cakewalk" than Lewis enjoyed at his peak.

WDC wins have historically almost always had:
- The best car
- The fastest, or at least one of the fastest lead drivers
- A teammate who is consistently finishing in the top 4 spots, but not challenging too closely

[paulguitar]

FNG said:

Or Mercedes W05, W06, W07, W10...

As previously mentioned, Hamilton had a top-level driver to contend with driving the WO5, WO6, and WO7. Verstappen has Perez.

I suppose the second half of this season is a bit like 1992 when a massively in-form Mansell destroyed journeyman teammate Patrese.

[ch37]

Maybe I am rewriting history but was Lewis ever able to consistently breeze through the field from wherever on a dry track? Put Max anywhere on the grid at the moment and he will win, easily, most worryingly that's happened on a diverse range of circuits too.

7th, 15th whatever, everyone (even drivers on the front row!) know he is more likely than not to win. The Red Bull is now a completely dominant race car on every kind of circuit.

[HustleRussell]

ch37 said:

Maybe I am rewriting history but was Lewis ever able to consistently breeze through the field from wherever on a dry track? Put Max anywhere on the grid at the moment and he will win, easily, most worryingly that's happened on a diverse range of circuits too.

7th, 15th whatever, everyone (even drivers on the front row!) know he is more likely than not to win. The Red Bull is now a completely dominant race car on every kind of circuit.

He qualified 2nd behind a Ferrari.

[ch37]

HustleRussell said:

He qualified 2nd behind a Ferrari.

Which is why I said dominant race car. Quali doesnt count for anything if a driver can start from 15th and win, easily. RB confirmed they sacrificed quali at Monza to go with a higher downforce package, yet they still only just lost out on pole.

[C70R]

paulguitar said:

FNG said:

Or Mercedes W05, W06, W07, W10...

As previously mentioned, Hamilton had a top-level driver to contend with driving the WO5, WO6, and WO7. Verstappen has Perez.

History tells us this is incredibly rare. Given what we've seen from Bottas since leaving Mercedes, you'd also have to think that car was more capable than even we were giving credit for.

[C70R]

ch37 said:

Maybe I am rewriting history but was Lewis ever able to consistently breeze through the field from wherever on a dry track?

Did you watch any of his title seasons?

In the rare instances that he didn't qualify up front, that package was unstoppable carving through the field.

[ch37]

C70R said:

Did you watch any of his title seasons?

In the rare instances that he didn't qualify up front, that package was unstoppable carving through the field.

I have a terrible memory, which is why I phrased it as a question, not a statement. So without safety cars/ stoppages or weather, and at every type of circuit, Lewis could cruise through the field without a fight on the rare ocassion he wasn't in the top 7 or so?

The absolute inevitableness when that happens feels new, but as I said I may be wrong.

[C70R]

ch37 said:

C70R said:

Did you watch any of his title seasons?

In the rare instances that he didn't qualify up front, that package was unstoppable carving through the field.

I have a terrible memory, which is why I phrased it as a question, not a statement. So without safety cars/ stoppages or weather, and at every type of circuit, Lewis could cruise through the field without a fight on the rare ocassion he wasn't in the top 7 or so?

The absolute inevitableness when that happens feels new, but as I said I may be wrong.

It's true that his title seasons often saw him as one of the best on a Saturday. But there were plenty of cases where he either didn't qualify up front or had to battle through mid-race.

It's easy to forget how dominant him and that Mercedes were as time diminishes the memory.

[oyster]

bern said:

I'm done...................

.............Not saying I'm never going to watch another race............

[RichB]

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Indeed and I did not suggest otherwise so there certainly no attempt to rewrite history. Perhaps, of course, you were not referring to my post?

[paulguitar]

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Lewis had to deal with a Ferrari that was at least on a par with his Mercedes in two of his title-winning seasons, and that actually subsequently turned out to be illegal.

[SmoothCriminal]

Why is there this obsession with an artifical finish to the race by not letting it finish under the safety car.

If someone is 10 seconds up the road and then gets fked because they bring the safety car out and change the rules to have it finish under green flag then what is the point of a gp.

They should just have a 1 or 2 lap sprint on fresh softs with 2 laps of fuel and then go home.

[shirt]

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Agree but I’d also add this will be max’s 2nd wdc in 8 attempts. Lewis has 7 from 16. Long way to go yet before their careers can be properly compared.

[Byker28i]

paulguitar said:

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Lewis had to deal with a Ferrari that was at least on a par with his Mercedes in two of his title-winning seasons, and that actually subsequently turned out to be illegal.

Then there's the teams with the dodgy floor this year...

[ch37]

SmoothCriminal said:

Why is there this obsession with an artifical finish to the race by not letting it finish under the safety car.

Quite. Despite the Sky commentary teams constant obsession with suggesting things 'could get close', it rarely does, and even then it's because the lead driver is backing off to preserve the car. Chances are the race would have finished largely as it did (and certainly at the sharp end), so all we're really robbed of in the very rare circumstance that this happens is a chequered flag with the cars going a bit faster.

[Frimley111R]

ch37 said:

Quite. Despite the Sky commentary teams constant obsession with suggesting things 'could get close', it rarely does, and even then it's because the lead driver is backing off to preserve the car. Chances are the race would have finished largely as it did (and certainly at the sharp end), so all we're really robbed of in the very rare circumstance that this happens is a chequered flag with the cars going a bit faster.

Commentators can't say 'Well, it looks static and no one is likely to catch anyone so you might as well switch off now and google the result later on.'

They have to hype it up and make it as exciting as it can be even if, often, the result is a foregone conclusion. On a number of occasions you hear them suggest the threat of rain when it's blue skies.

[C70R]

shirt said:

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Agree but I’d also add this will be max’s 2nd wdc in 8 attempts. Lewis has 7 from 16. Long way to go yet before their careers can be properly compared.

I'm not sure anyone is comparing their overall careers, are they?

[Byker28i]

Has a quick skim, did we find out why Bottas etc sat behind the safety car and didn't unlap?

[heebeegeetee]

C70R said:

- A teammate who is consistently finishing in the top 4 spots, but not challenging too closely

You can't put Alonso, Button, Rosberg, Russel (have I missed anyone) in those categories, you could put all of Max's team mates possibly, except the ones who weren't quick enough for a top four.