Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[MCBrowncoat]

C70R said:

MCBrowncoat said:

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

I'm not sure you can say that, because somewhere inbetween lies the truth, and therefore my statement contains an element of truth, the level of which cannot be decided by you.

At one end of the scale we have "the winner being exceptional" which is Max has been so good that nothing could have been done about it, regardless of how good the other teams could have been, and at the other end of the scale you have it's been "made easy for the winner" because of Ferrari f-ups and other teams simply not developing competitive machinery etc

And somewhere inbetween is the truth. And you can't measure that, just as I can't measure it.

So there is an element of cake walk in there. But what %age is that?

For what it's worth, I've nothing against Max or him winning another WC. He's thoroughly deserving of it.

[PhilAsia]

C70R said:

MCBrowncoat said:

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

Eh?

cake walk
noun

• A type of dance originating in the United States in the 19th century.
• From the mid 1900s, a game at a fair or party in which people walk around a numbered circle along to music. When the music is stopped, the caller draws a number from a jar and whoever is standing on or closest to that number that number wins a cake.
• Something extremely easy.

[kambites]

MCBrowncoat said:

So there is an element of cake walk in there. But what %age is that?

For what it's worth, I've nothing against Max or him winning another WC. He's thoroughly deserving of it.

I think if you put any of the top... 6ish drivers in Max's position they'd be pretty much as dominant in that car. But you only have to look at how close Perez (who is at worst a solid mid-field driver) is to the rest of the field to see that it's not a question of "my granny could win every race in that car".

[entropy]

C70R said:

MCBrowncoat said:

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

There was a time when RBR and Ferrari could steal wins from Merc whereas this season even though Ferrari have made a string of errors Max has had the better race car.

[heebeegeetee]

C70R said:

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

Hmm, we'll have to agree to differ. I think Max & RB was the same combination last year too, but it just so happened there was another outstanding combination also.

This year there isn't, so it is indeed a cakewalk. (Relative, of course. It's "easy" relative to what the others in F1 are currently doing).

Not that Max & RB are to blame of course, they are simply doing their job, and about time too because RB was wasting Max's talent for a number of years. Any "blame" lies with the other teams, but at least Merc did get it right for a good number of years. Ferrari are now seriously letting the side down.

We're probably going into a few years of Max domination, which is fair enough. Hopefully he'll have more competition at some point.

[C70R]

heebeegeetee said:

C70R said:

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

Hmm, we'll have to agree to differ. I think Max & RB was the same combination last year too, but it just so happened there was another outstanding combination also.

This year there isn't, so it is indeed a cakewalk. (Relative, of course. It's "easy" relative to what the others in F1 are currently doing).

Not that Max & RB are to blame of course, they are simply doing their job, and about time too because RB was wasting Max's talent for a number of years. Any "blame" lies with the other teams, but at least Merc did get it right for a good number of years. Ferrari are now seriously letting the side down.

We're probably going into a few years of Max domination, which is fair enough. Hopefully he'll have more competition at some point.

But all the cars have made a massive technical leap forward this year, so surely the credit must go to engineering and a much-matured driver? Ferrari's brainfarts have ruined what might have otherwise been a slightly more interesting year, but it's clear that the leading package is so much better than everyone else right now.

[heebeegeetee]

C70R said:

But all the cars have made a massive technical leap forward this year, so surely the credit must go to engineering and a much-matured driver? Ferrari's brainfarts have ruined what might have otherwise been a slightly more interesting year, but it's clear that the leading package is so much better than everyone else right now.

The cars have been slowed have they not, albeit by possibly not as much as hoped/expected.

I don't know about Max being much-matured because of course he's not really being tested this year, he's in a position whereby it's easy for him to look comfortable.

Having said that I don't at all agree with the "put any of the top 6 in the car" type of comments.

[Jasandjules]

kambites said:

That's partly because Hamilton's teammates were all far closer to him than Perez is to Verstappen. Whether that's a statement about Hamilton's teammates vs Perex, or Hamilton vs Verstappen will obviously come down to one's personal bias but the real answer is that it's impossible to know for certain.

It is also because Lewis' teammates were allowed to race him...........

[C70R]

entropy said:

C70R said:

PhilAsia said:

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

I'm not sure Danny Ric is the sort of paragon of consistency to make that kind of comparison with.

Danny now is a very different driver than Danny 2016.

Probably shows that Max moved up a level in that time and progressed into a better driver because Max wanted to match Lewis and go toe-to-toe with him whilst Lewis was still at his peak.

More than one thing can be true at once. Nuanced thinking.

[C70R]

MCBrowncoat said:

other teams simply not developing competitive machinery

I'd say this has been the case for the vast majority of WDCs historically, tbf.

[paulguitar]

Jasandjules said:

kambites said:

That's partly because Hamilton's teammates were all far closer to him than Perez is to Verstappen. Whether that's a statement about Hamilton's teammates vs Perex, or Hamilton vs Verstappen will obviously come down to one's personal bias but the real answer is that it's impossible to know for certain.

It is also because Lewis' teammates were allowed to race him...........

True, but with Perez I think there's just a big gap so it is rarely an issue. If we look at Verstappen's history with teammates, he has annihilated Perez, Albon, and Gasly, and had a lot more trouble with Ricciardo and, to a lesser extent, Sainz.

[C70R]

Jasandjules said:

kambites said:

That's partly because Hamilton's teammates were all far closer to him than Perez is to Verstappen. Whether that's a statement about Hamilton's teammates vs Perex, or Hamilton vs Verstappen will obviously come down to one's personal bias but the real answer is that it's impossible to know for certain.

It is also because Lewis' teammates were allowed to race him...........

For a handful of seasons, yes. Lewis/Nico is probably the only time in recent years that we've seen two drivers from the same team contesting a championship. And that was down to the fact that Merc employed two talented drivers and had comfortably the best car.

[ch37]

C70R said:

For a handful of seasons, yes. Lewis/Nico is probably the only time in recent years that we've seen two drivers from the same team contesting a championship. And that was down to the fact that Merc employed two talented drivers and had comfortably the best car.

...and genuinely let them battle it out. Red Bull, if recent history teaches us anything, are very much a one driver team.

[garypotter]

entropy said:

There was a time when RBR and Ferrari could steal wins from Merc whereas this season even though Ferrari have made a string of errors Max has had the better race car.

Or the FIA meddling with the result to stop a Mecredes win... come on Toto start sending the FIA Xmas cards in large brown envelopes.

[DanielSan]

kambites said:

As was Hamilton/Mercedes over the last ten years or whatever it was. It's not like the other teams weren't trying, they just couldn't compete at the same level.

The truly remarkable thing about the Mercedes/Hamilton combination wasn't the level of their dominance but the period it spanned. It will be interesting to see if Redbull/Verstappan can manage the same, it's hard to bet against them with the advantage they have at the moment.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th September 16:36

I think it'll be harder for Red Bull to maintain a level of dominance for aslong as Mercedes managed it. A big part of their domination upto Rosberg leaving the team was the engine advantage Mercedes had with the power unit. It's fair to say that the Honda/RBPT, Mercedes and Ferrari are close to if not identical in performance now, and at the start of a huge reg change like this one the car/aero advantage should be easier to close up in the next couple of seasons.

RBR's big advantage over Mercedes and Ferrari at the moment is on the operational side. They're rarely cock up on strategy, are more often than not the team doing the fastest pit stops and making the least mistakes, and when it comes to in race strategy changes they react quickly and get it right more often than not where Mercedes seem unwilling to gamble or use alternative strategies on their 2 cars and Ferrari, well....

[Jasandjules]

DanielSan said:

RBR's big advantage over Mercedes and Ferrari at the moment is on the operational side. ....

No, the Merc is too draggy. Waaay too draggy.

[TDK-C60]

Byker28i said:

Has a quick skim, did we find out why Bottas etc sat behind the safety car and didn't unlap?

I've been wondering that.

The tape of AT telling Tsunoda ..

"Horner wants you to pretend you haven't understood the unlap yourself instruction for 2 more laps, should be fine as we're got the director to put the safety car in front of Russel - and not let him and 11 cars pass for a while - plus Verstappen is going to take ages to get back around the the SC so should run out of time nicely. We will pretend to be gutted we didn't do the "this is a motor race" thing at the end"

...has not surfaced, so presumably didn't happen.

it's joke, relax

[C70R]

ch37 said:

C70R said:

For a handful of seasons, yes. Lewis/Nico is probably the only time in recent years that we've seen two drivers from the same team contesting a championship. And that was down to the fact that Merc employed two talented drivers and had comfortably the best car.

...and genuinely let them battle it out. Red Bull, if recent history teaches us anything, are very much a one driver team.

I can't recall us ever seeing two drivers of equal talent, both capable of winning on their day in the car, where one was being actively hamstrung by the team in order to benefit the other.

[C70R]

Jasandjules said:

DanielSan said:

RBR's big advantage over Mercedes and Ferrari at the moment is on the operational side. ....

No, the Merc is too draggy. Waaay too draggy.

Am I missing something? The RB car is an absolute monster at the moment. Sure Max is a talented driver, but it's not just down to him. The team have given him an absolute rocketship underneath him.

[Teddy Lop]

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Max had Michael masi as team mate for one of his titles*

If you're going to use bottas to slate Lewis - keep in mind that if Merc had utilised bottas the way reb bull utilise [support driver function, current form:] Perez then Lewis would have had last year...