2021 Cost Cap Breaches
Discussion
cc3 said:
Doesn’t seem to be a rumour! Even refer to it as similar to doping!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
You appear to have misinterpreted your own source. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
‘One senior figure said that breaking the cost cap was analogous to doping as the financial increase involved is directly related to performance.’
This senior figure doesn’t accuse any team of breaking the cost cap, do they?
As I say, if it’s true, then I’d hope it is dealt with in the right way, but people are convinced of Red Bull’s guilt already. It would be the same if Mercedes were being scrutinised - Red Bull fans and people who hate Hamilton would be working themselves into a frenzy in the same way.
I need to learn to not engage with it all. Twitter especially is a hellhole, from fans of every team. I’m all for rivalry and banter but it’s descended beyond that.
Chebble said:
You appear to have misinterpreted your own source.
‘One senior figure said that breaking the cost cap was analogous to doping as the financial increase involved is directly related to performance.’
This senior figure doesn’t accuse any team of breaking the cost cap, do they?
As I say, if it’s true, then I’d hope it is dealt with in the right way, but people are convinced of Red Bull’s guilt already. It would be the same if Mercedes were being scrutinised - Red Bull fans and people who hate Hamilton would be working themselves into a frenzy in the same way.
I need to learn to not engage with it all. Twitter especially is a hellhole, from fans of every team. I’m all for rivalry and banter but it’s descended beyond that.
If true then a bit of outrage is quite fair.‘One senior figure said that breaking the cost cap was analogous to doping as the financial increase involved is directly related to performance.’
This senior figure doesn’t accuse any team of breaking the cost cap, do they?
As I say, if it’s true, then I’d hope it is dealt with in the right way, but people are convinced of Red Bull’s guilt already. It would be the same if Mercedes were being scrutinised - Red Bull fans and people who hate Hamilton would be working themselves into a frenzy in the same way.
I need to learn to not engage with it all. Twitter especially is a hellhole, from fans of every team. I’m all for rivalry and banter but it’s descended beyond that.
Chebble said:
cc3 said:
Doesn’t seem to be a rumour! Even refer to it as similar to doping!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
You appear to have misinterpreted your own source. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
‘One senior figure said that breaking the cost cap was analogous to doping as the financial increase involved is directly related to performance.’
This senior figure doesn’t accuse any team of breaking the cost cap, do they?
As I say, if it’s true, then I’d hope it is dealt with in the right way, but people are convinced of Red Bull’s guilt already. It would be the same if Mercedes were being scrutinised - Red Bull fans and people who hate Hamilton would be working themselves into a frenzy in the same way.
I need to learn to not engage with it all. Twitter especially is a hellhole, from fans of every team. I’m all for rivalry and banter but it’s descended beyond that.
cc3 said:
Chebble said:
cc3 said:
Doesn’t seem to be a rumour! Even refer to it as similar to doping!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
You appear to have misinterpreted your own source. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63089233
‘One senior figure said that breaking the cost cap was analogous to doping as the financial increase involved is directly related to performance.’
This senior figure doesn’t accuse any team of breaking the cost cap, do they?
As I say, if it’s true, then I’d hope it is dealt with in the right way, but people are convinced of Red Bull’s guilt already. It would be the same if Mercedes were being scrutinised - Red Bull fans and people who hate Hamilton would be working themselves into a frenzy in the same way.
I need to learn to not engage with it all. Twitter especially is a hellhole, from fans of every team. I’m all for rivalry and banter but it’s descended beyond that.
It takes a massive, monumental rule breach to retrospectively strip someone of a title (which is what we’re talking about here)
Lance Armstrong was a good example.
However, this is ‘simply’ spending a few too many dollars. Yes, it’s wrong but trying to explain that to the Drive to Survive generation is impossible.
I think Red Bull (if guilty) should have the book thrown at them, but I’m saying they won’t, for the reasons above.
ChocolateFrog said:
Anyone genuinely expecting any more than a slap on the wrist?
If the rumours transpire to be true then they've gained a hell of an advantage not just last year for 3 consecutive seasons.
Can't wait to see the FIA muddle this conundrum.
As last year ended so close they won’t change any results, j maybe a fineIf the rumours transpire to be true then they've gained a hell of an advantage not just last year for 3 consecutive seasons.
Can't wait to see the FIA muddle this conundrum.
Muzzer79 said:
Because it’s retrospective.
It takes a massive, monumental rule breach to retrospectively strip someone of a title (which is what we’re talking about here)
Lance Armstrong was a good example.
However, this is ‘simply’ spending a few too many dollars. Yes, it’s wrong but trying to explain that to the Drive to Survive generation is impossible.
I think Red Bull (if guilty) should have the book thrown at them, but I’m saying they won’t, for the reasons above.
$200,000 is enough to build an upgrade package that could decrease lap times 0.1 or 0.2 seconds per lap. You get that advantage for every subsequent lap of the season following fitting the parts. It’s a massive, massive rule breach because performance directly correlates with budget (within a given team) within the region around the cost cap. Plus, any expenditure over the cap is by default on performance because everything else the teams needs has already been paid for. It takes a massive, monumental rule breach to retrospectively strip someone of a title (which is what we’re talking about here)
Lance Armstrong was a good example.
However, this is ‘simply’ spending a few too many dollars. Yes, it’s wrong but trying to explain that to the Drive to Survive generation is impossible.
I think Red Bull (if guilty) should have the book thrown at them, but I’m saying they won’t, for the reasons above.
Adrian W said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Anyone genuinely expecting any more than a slap on the wrist?
If the rumours transpire to be true then they've gained a hell of an advantage not just last year for 3 consecutive seasons.
Can't wait to see the FIA muddle this conundrum.
As last year ended so close they won’t change any results, j maybe a fineIf the rumours transpire to be true then they've gained a hell of an advantage not just last year for 3 consecutive seasons.
Can't wait to see the FIA muddle this conundrum.
Scabutz said:
I live near the Red Bull garage, walking past it at 8am the sheer number of cars and people flooding into that place Im not surprised they busted their cap. The salary bill must be enormous. They all drive like w
kers on the way in as well.
I think you’re on to something there.kers on the way in as well.Auditors, spreadsheets, paper trails? Who needs that when you’ve spotted a much more erudite way to observe cost cap breaches.
Not too sure about that, if only it was that easycc3 said:
So if you think nobody has broken the cost cap there is no story - simple!! If someone has broken the cap as the press indicate and if it’s Red Bull and they won they should treat them like Lance Armstrong?. Just disqualify them for 2021/22 seasons ? Why wouldn’t you ?
I’m just not jumping to conclusions. IIRC Russell was outspoken about the TD and the advantage that Red Bull and Ferrari had because of it - his words more or less. New TD comes in, Red Bull are still quick, Ferrari less so, Russell promptly shuts up. If the rumours are true, then disqualify the teams from the WCC. Last season and this if need be. Sends a message out, and - if Red Bull have breached the cap - less money for next year. The WCC is where the money is, so it’ll have a knock on effect next year. I feel that would be appropriate.
As for drivers being punished, I think it is unlikely. Spygate, and more recently the Ferrari engine issue did not result in driver penalties. I’d consider that to be a precedent.
A financial penalty would be a joke all round and renders the cost cap pointless.
But, all of that depends on any breach being proven.
Is this not smoke and mirrors though? I was under the impression (completely without evidence I’ll admit) that everyone spent over the cost cap by creatively accounting through other parts of their businesses….like super cars.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence is it that the world and his wife now have ‘advanced engineering’ departments that consult for other companies. Sure it’s a nice extra revenue stream but it’s also a great way to do development of your F1 car off the books.
As history in F1 has shown, if one or two are proved to have been at it, you can pretty much guarantee they all were. It’s why we had traction control in the 2000s. The FIA knew everyone had it in some form or another, but couldn’t effectively police it at the time, so they ‘allowed’ it in the regs.
If this is happening, it says more about the façade of ‘cost caps’ imposed by the FIA (and the real cost of actually running an F1 team) than it does about the teams. It’s like the constant output about a greener future and being carbon neutral whilst scheduling a GP in Miami between Baku and Imola….
I don’t think it’s a coincidence is it that the world and his wife now have ‘advanced engineering’ departments that consult for other companies. Sure it’s a nice extra revenue stream but it’s also a great way to do development of your F1 car off the books.
As history in F1 has shown, if one or two are proved to have been at it, you can pretty much guarantee they all were. It’s why we had traction control in the 2000s. The FIA knew everyone had it in some form or another, but couldn’t effectively police it at the time, so they ‘allowed’ it in the regs.
If this is happening, it says more about the façade of ‘cost caps’ imposed by the FIA (and the real cost of actually running an F1 team) than it does about the teams. It’s like the constant output about a greener future and being carbon neutral whilst scheduling a GP in Miami between Baku and Imola….
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 30th September 23:58
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