2021 Cost Cap Breaches
Discussion
In my view if a team spent substantively more than the cost cap then complete disqualification from the year in which they first did it is reasonable. They were not playing the same game as the others, so the result is unsound.
You then need to penalise also in subsequent years because the spend does impact performance the following years,
The most sensible way there is a reduced cost cap/budget for them, equal to the amount they previously over spent. it would be tough. They would need to make people redundant. And then they’d need them back again the year after. But that outcome might be quite a good way to discourage teams from spending over the cap. And it might also make it harder to teams that do it or think about it to recruit.
You then need to penalise also in subsequent years because the spend does impact performance the following years,
The most sensible way there is a reduced cost cap/budget for them, equal to the amount they previously over spent. it would be tough. They would need to make people redundant. And then they’d need them back again the year after. But that outcome might be quite a good way to discourage teams from spending over the cap. And it might also make it harder to teams that do it or think about it to recruit.
RacerMike said:
Is this not smoke and mirrors though? I was under the impression (completely without evidence I’ll admit) that everyone spent over the cost cap by creatively accounting through other parts of their businesses….like super cars.
IMO if that's the case and can be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that every team broke the cost cap rules as they were written, every team should be disqualified from both championships and the whole season should be declared null and void. The only other option with any integrity is for the FIA to admit that the cost cap is unworkable and abandon it entirely. I don't think you can have a "sport" where it is in the best interests of the participants to break the rules. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but there should really have been a hard, non-negotiable penalty defined for breaking the cost cap, and that penalty should have been obviously severe enough that teams wouldn't do it even if it meant, for example, missing races at the end of the season. Otherwise what's to stop a team like Mercedes or Ferrari now going out and spending ten times the cost cap in the remainder of this season to make sure they have the best car for next?
Edited by kambites on Saturday 1st October 08:07
Dazzled said:
Interesting interview with Toto after FP2. Said that two teams have breached the cap. One with a minor breach and another with a more significant overspend. They know the second is Red Bull and that if Horner doesn’t think there’s a problem then he needs to talk to his CFO.
Made the point that any advantage gained last season as a consequence of breaching the cap will have delivered an advantage this season and by definition for next season too as the regs are the same. Any sanction therefore should take this into account.
I saw that interview. That was a powerful piece. Toto saying they know where there is more performance to go on their car, but they can’t afford to do it, running second hand parts, making staff redundant to hit the cap. When it sounds like RB have taken liberties with the budget cap.Made the point that any advantage gained last season as a consequence of breaching the cap will have delivered an advantage this season and by definition for next season too as the regs are the same. Any sanction therefore should take this into account.
Given what F1 & FIA have already published as penalties for a major overspend, I don’t see how RB, if proven guilty, can escape serious punishment.
ETA: Here’s a thought, this could also give F1 & the FIA an easy way to correct last years championship. They have effectively acknowledged it was wrong, but if they change the result they look like a laughing stock, ignoring the fact they already do for a moment, now they can do it and look like the hero because it will be all Red Bull’s faults.
Not that I believe for a second it will change, but if they spun it correctly, it could make them look good.
Edited by Megaflow on Saturday 1st October 08:19
Bright Halo said:
A boxer wins a fight by a last round knockout and wins the world championship. Then sometime after the fight video footage emerges of his corner slipping a horseshoe in his glove before the last round. Would he be allowed to remain world champion?
Absolutely not.
Well, is the FIA the one making the decisions as to what is allowed? Absolutely not.
To add to the FIA’s woes. I read somewhere (no idea where) that the paddock rumour mill is suggesting RB have already, or are very much on their way to breaching the cost cap for this year too.
Should this be true it makes it more than an accounting/interpretation issue in 2021, it’s a conscious decision by RB to ignore the cap.
Compare this to any other sport - Premiership rugby has a player salary cap. Saracens were found to have breached it over multiple years. In short, they got a significant fine and docked enough points to drop them to the bottom of the table and face relegation.
The FIA have a hell of a task dealing with this one to everyone’s satisfaction.
Should this be true it makes it more than an accounting/interpretation issue in 2021, it’s a conscious decision by RB to ignore the cap.
Compare this to any other sport - Premiership rugby has a player salary cap. Saracens were found to have breached it over multiple years. In short, they got a significant fine and docked enough points to drop them to the bottom of the table and face relegation.
The FIA have a hell of a task dealing with this one to everyone’s satisfaction.
jsf said:
RacerMike said:
Is this not smoke and mirrors though? I was under the impression (completely without evidence I’ll admit) that everyone spent over the cost cap by creatively accounting through other parts of their businesses….like super cars.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence is it that the world and his wife now have ‘advanced engineering’ departments that consult for other companies. Sure it’s a nice extra revenue stream but it’s also a great way to do development of your F1 car off the books.
As history in F1 has shown, if one or two are proved to have been at it, you can pretty much guarantee they all were. It’s why we had traction control in the 2000s. The FIA knew everyone had it in some form or another, but couldn’t effectively police it at the time, so they ‘allowed’ it in the regs.
If this is happening, it says more about the façade of ‘cost caps’ imposed by the FIA (and the real cost of actually running an F1 team) than it does about the teams. It’s like the constant output about a greener future and being carbon neutral whilst scheduling a GP in Miami between Baku and Imola….
I wondered how long it would take for you to make that play.I don’t think it’s a coincidence is it that the world and his wife now have ‘advanced engineering’ departments that consult for other companies. Sure it’s a nice extra revenue stream but it’s also a great way to do development of your F1 car off the books.
As history in F1 has shown, if one or two are proved to have been at it, you can pretty much guarantee they all were. It’s why we had traction control in the 2000s. The FIA knew everyone had it in some form or another, but couldn’t effectively police it at the time, so they ‘allowed’ it in the regs.
If this is happening, it says more about the façade of ‘cost caps’ imposed by the FIA (and the real cost of actually running an F1 team) than it does about the teams. It’s like the constant output about a greener future and being carbon neutral whilst scheduling a GP in Miami between Baku and Imola….
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 30th September 23:58
The rules were agreed by all the teams, if they broke those rules and as a result made a farce of the competition, they should be heavily sanctioned.
This isn't an error or pushing your luck on a mm tolerence, it's blatant cheating of the entire sport. Doping is a good comparison to use.
It’s a fine line between pushing the definition of the rules and cheating, and that’s a topic for another thread, however culturally F1 is very much a place where everyone is looking for and advantage. As I said, I’m pretty sure they’ve all been overspending in one way or another. It’s just easier to hide or justify when you’re the subsidiary of a large car manufacturer that also has other motorsport activity. Who’s really checking what the teams of people at HWA or McLren Automotive are doing day to day and whether the component development they’re working on is really for a 720S GT3 or a Mercedes One.
Edited by RacerMike on Saturday 1st October 09:04
t storm…? Apologies if it’s been covered, but how has Toto managed to get access to the RB’s accounts? Surely these aren’t available for all to see before they’re submitted to the FIA.
Horner was careful with his words “We know where these rumours are coming from”, but Toto has gone full-on accusations.
If they are indeed available for any team to see, why have no other team principals added their voices?
Horner was careful with his words “We know where these rumours are coming from”, but Toto has gone full-on accusations.
If they are indeed available for any team to see, why have no other team principals added their voices?
F1 is a team sport that has two trophies but let's be clear you cannot win if you have the best car and a rubbish driver, just like you cannot win if you are the best driver and a rubbish car.
Tin foil hat on.
You are at the end of 2020 in the RB end of season internal review. You finished comfortably third, you are 133 points behind the drivers champion and 240 odd behind in the constructors. That is a hell or a gap. In f1 and all sport its always been about the winning, coming second isn't a consideration.
You are sat there in a team meeting thinking that 2021 could be a long year, maybe we can get within 100 points of the Merc and 50 of the expected drivers champion. But what's the point, you'll be second at best. Who remembers second?
Slip yourself into DM and CH shoes, they are cunning individuals remember, and ruthless too. You decide at the season start that you are going to break the cost cap, perhaps aiming for a minor breach to slip into the lesser penalties. The aim is to win and worry about the potential punishment later. They are probably thinking that they cannot remember in their time in the sport the winner ever being reversed. I can't.
CH and DM call Max into the meeting and explain the options
1) we stay within the rules and most likely finish 2nd or 3rd.
2) we break the cost cap and give ourselves a chance of winning in 2021. There is a chance it could be reversed but our lawyers will do our best.
3) we break the cost cap, unfortunately don't win in 2021 but give us an championship winning car in 2022. As the rule break was in 2021, they can't penalise us in 2022.
If you were Max, why would you not opt to do this! You are most likely finishing 2nd or 3rd otherwise. Other than Merc who had a lot to lose after being dominant in 2020, I'm genuinely amazed the other big teams didn't also do it!
So, as far as only taking constructor points away, it just doesn't wash in my book, the drivers are part of the team and arguably gain equally from a great (unfair?) car. As per my scenario above I would imagine that the drivers, know exactly what rules are being tweaked, bent, broken.
Do we think it's any coincidence that CH has been bleating on about inflation for most of this season. He is doing his job, muddying the waters. If they are 5% over, he can suggest they would have been in target if it wasn't for inflation. I know inflation in 2021 probably wasn't over 5% in 2021, but that's probably why they have been dragging out the cost cap review. Inflation is in the forefront of everyone's mind at the moment. I strongly dislike the chap, but damn he is good at his job!
Tin foil hat off.
By the way I don't think the championship will be reversed. Even if it was, no one's going to remember it and I dare say LH wouldn't want to receive it 9months later when he is mid table in the 2022 championship. He wants to win on track.
Tin foil hat on.
You are at the end of 2020 in the RB end of season internal review. You finished comfortably third, you are 133 points behind the drivers champion and 240 odd behind in the constructors. That is a hell or a gap. In f1 and all sport its always been about the winning, coming second isn't a consideration.
You are sat there in a team meeting thinking that 2021 could be a long year, maybe we can get within 100 points of the Merc and 50 of the expected drivers champion. But what's the point, you'll be second at best. Who remembers second?
Slip yourself into DM and CH shoes, they are cunning individuals remember, and ruthless too. You decide at the season start that you are going to break the cost cap, perhaps aiming for a minor breach to slip into the lesser penalties. The aim is to win and worry about the potential punishment later. They are probably thinking that they cannot remember in their time in the sport the winner ever being reversed. I can't.
CH and DM call Max into the meeting and explain the options
1) we stay within the rules and most likely finish 2nd or 3rd.
2) we break the cost cap and give ourselves a chance of winning in 2021. There is a chance it could be reversed but our lawyers will do our best.
3) we break the cost cap, unfortunately don't win in 2021 but give us an championship winning car in 2022. As the rule break was in 2021, they can't penalise us in 2022.
If you were Max, why would you not opt to do this! You are most likely finishing 2nd or 3rd otherwise. Other than Merc who had a lot to lose after being dominant in 2020, I'm genuinely amazed the other big teams didn't also do it!
So, as far as only taking constructor points away, it just doesn't wash in my book, the drivers are part of the team and arguably gain equally from a great (unfair?) car. As per my scenario above I would imagine that the drivers, know exactly what rules are being tweaked, bent, broken.
Do we think it's any coincidence that CH has been bleating on about inflation for most of this season. He is doing his job, muddying the waters. If they are 5% over, he can suggest they would have been in target if it wasn't for inflation. I know inflation in 2021 probably wasn't over 5% in 2021, but that's probably why they have been dragging out the cost cap review. Inflation is in the forefront of everyone's mind at the moment. I strongly dislike the chap, but damn he is good at his job!
Tin foil hat off.
By the way I don't think the championship will be reversed. Even if it was, no one's going to remember it and I dare say LH wouldn't want to receive it 9months later when he is mid table in the 2022 championship. He wants to win on track.
How are the budget cap rules scrutinised?
Surely all the teams should be submitting accounts after the last race of the season? How are RB only submitting their accounts for scrutiny ten months after the end of the season and because they have been accused of a breach?
All the accounts from the ten teams should be submitted and audited before the start of the next season as a matter of course.
Surely all the teams should be submitting accounts after the last race of the season? How are RB only submitting their accounts for scrutiny ten months after the end of the season and because they have been accused of a breach?
All the accounts from the ten teams should be submitted and audited before the start of the next season as a matter of course.
If this is true, Red Bull have played an absolute blinder...
Breach the cap in the year it makes most sense to do so, poorly defined penalties and a head start on a car concept that could give them 3 championships.
Even if they were miles over and won last years WDC, the financial gains from that have been huge. The sponsorship deals alone that they announced over the winter amounted to more than the annual cap. Let's say worst case scenario they are stripped of one championship (hugely unlikely), they still have one in the bank and a strong possibility of another next season. It's genius, when you think about it.
Even if this is a non-story the FIA have yet again made a right mess of this, everyone said when the rules were announced that the penalties were wooly at best.
I'm actually surprised more teams didn't do a cost benefit and decide going over by 4.9% made sense, this is F1 after all, marginal gains.
Prediction: a trivial fine, reduced budget cap next season and a suspended championship exclusion/points deduction.
Breach the cap in the year it makes most sense to do so, poorly defined penalties and a head start on a car concept that could give them 3 championships.
Even if they were miles over and won last years WDC, the financial gains from that have been huge. The sponsorship deals alone that they announced over the winter amounted to more than the annual cap. Let's say worst case scenario they are stripped of one championship (hugely unlikely), they still have one in the bank and a strong possibility of another next season. It's genius, when you think about it.
Even if this is a non-story the FIA have yet again made a right mess of this, everyone said when the rules were announced that the penalties were wooly at best.
I'm actually surprised more teams didn't do a cost benefit and decide going over by 4.9% made sense, this is F1 after all, marginal gains.
Prediction: a trivial fine, reduced budget cap next season and a suspended championship exclusion/points deduction.
Big Nanas said:
Apologies if it’s been covered, but how has Toto managed to get access to the RB’s accounts? Surely these aren’t available for all to see before they’re submitted to the FIA.
Horner was careful with his words “We know where these rumours are coming from”, but Toto has gone full-on accusations.
If they are indeed available for any team to see, why have no other team principals added their voices?
Well. It’s just the latest attempt for the Merc PR machine to try and undermine last years result. I hate the way F1 is becoming like our politics. Just constant he said/she said with accusations and rumours dividing opinion constantly.Horner was careful with his words “We know where these rumours are coming from”, but Toto has gone full-on accusations.
If they are indeed available for any team to see, why have no other team principals added their voices?
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