Perez, The Elephant in the Room??

[What The Deuces]

JNW1 said:

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

Verstappen - who had easily the fastest car in Abu Dhabi -

The same car Perez had you mean?

In race conditions I do think the Red Bull was the fastest car in Abu Dhabi and with Verstappen behind the wheel it was easily the quickest combination on the track. That's why I believe he could have played with Leclerc - or indeed anyone else - pretty much as he pleased if he'd had the inclination to do so (just as Schumacher did in Malaysia all those years ago).

The only difference is Schumacher decided to help his teammate whereas on Sunday Verstappen apparently discovered a hitherto unseen sense of fair play and decided not to...

As said the rules have changed since then about blocking and the sandwich (Rubens) was tucked up under Schumi's gearbox, when Perez is half a second a lap slower it makes the choreography a bit more risky.

I think Max has come out of this looking badly, he must have his reasons but unless we are all to know then that won't change. Clearly Sergio has done something deeply personal to Max or hasn't done something he should have, I don't think the second place in the WDC is going to keep RBR or SP awake at night as its not really important to anyone and its been blown a bit out of proportion by the (social) media.

Helmut has been clever getting Danny Ric on board, it will make Sergio behave.

[carl_w]

What The Deuces said:

I think Max has come out of this looking badly, he must have his reasons but unless we are all to know then that won't change.

We know he has his reasons. He said it on the radio and in the interviews in Brazil.

[PhilAsia]

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

Verstappen - who had easily the fastest car in Abu Dhabi -

The same car Perez had you mean?

In race conditions I do think the Red Bull was the fastest car in Abu Dhabi and with Verstappen behind the wheel it was easily the quickest combination on the track. That's why I believe he could have played with Leclerc - or indeed anyone else - pretty much as he pleased if he'd had the inclination to do so (just as Schumacher did in Malaysia all those years ago).

The only difference is Schumacher decided to help his teammate whereas on Sunday Verstappen apparently discovered a hitherto unseen sense of fair play and decided not to...

What The Deuces said:

As said the rules have changed since then about blocking and the sandwich (Rubens) was tucked up under Schumi's gearbox, when Perez is half a second a lap slower it makes the choreography a bit more risky.

Are you unable to remember Perez blocking Lewis only a year ago? Are you another that requires a meme to jog the memory?

What The Deuces said:

Clearly Sergio has done something deeply personal to Max or hasn't done something he should have

It is widely understood that Perez did not hold the door open for the pouty Gold Lamé Booted Tangerine Messanger ( ) in Monaco...aaaaand we're back on topic

What The Deuces said:

I don't think the second place in the WDC is going to keep RBR or SP awake at night as its not really important to anyone and its been blown a bit out of proportion by the (social) media.

Except for Perez' comments until he was told to stfu

[JNW1]

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

Verstappen - who had easily the fastest car in Abu Dhabi -

The same car Perez had you mean?

In race conditions I do think the Red Bull was the fastest car in Abu Dhabi and with Verstappen behind the wheel it was easily the quickest combination on the track. That's why I believe he could have played with Leclerc - or indeed anyone else - pretty much as he pleased if he'd had the inclination to do so (just as Schumacher did in Malaysia all those years ago).

The only difference is Schumacher decided to help his teammate whereas on Sunday Verstappen apparently discovered a hitherto unseen sense of fair play and decided not to...

As said the rules have changed since then about blocking and the sandwich (Rubens) was tucked up under Schumi's gearbox, when Perez is half a second a lap slower it makes the choreography a bit more risky.

The race I was referring to was Malaysia 1999 and Rubens wasn't involved, it was Schumacher helping Irvine by letting him through and then slowing Hakkinen down. From what I recall Schumacher didn't do that by using manoeuvres that would be considered illegal today, he just made sure Hakkinen couldn't get close enough to have a go in the overtaking areas and then slowed it right down in the places where overtaking wasn't possible. The net result was Irvine cruised off into the distance and Hakkinen had to settle for 3rd behind the two Ferrari drivers.

Ok, DRS changes things a bit now - and hence Leclerc might have been able to get close enough to have a go at getting past Verstappen on Sunday - but with the extra pace Max had he'd have easily retaken the position IMO. And of course all the time Max and Charles were squabbling Perez would have been getting closer...

What The Deuces said:

I think Max has come out of this looking badly, he must have his reasons but unless we are all to know then that won't change. Clearly Sergio has done something deeply personal to Max or hasn't done something he should have, I don't think the second place in the WDC is going to keep RBR or SP awake at night as its not really important to anyone and its been blown a bit out of proportion by the (social) media.

Helmut has been clever getting Danny Ric on board, it will make Sergio behave.

On all that we can agree!

[What The Deuces]

PhilAsia said:

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

What The Deuces said:

JNW1 said:

Verstappen - who had easily the fastest car in Abu Dhabi -

The same car Perez had you mean?

In race conditions I do think the Red Bull was the fastest car in Abu Dhabi and with Verstappen behind the wheel it was easily the quickest combination on the track. That's why I believe he could have played with Leclerc - or indeed anyone else - pretty much as he pleased if he'd had the inclination to do so (just as Schumacher did in Malaysia all those years ago).

The only difference is Schumacher decided to help his teammate whereas on Sunday Verstappen apparently discovered a hitherto unseen sense of fair play and decided not to...

What The Deuces said:

As said the rules have changed since then about blocking and the sandwich (Rubens) was tucked up under Schumi's gearbox, when Perez is half a second a lap slower it makes the choreography a bit more risky.

Are you unable to remember Perez blocking Lewis only a year ago? Are you another that requires a meme to jog the memory?

What The Deuces said:

Clearly Sergio has done something deeply personal to Max or hasn't done something he should have

It is widely understood that Perez did not hold the door open for the pouty Gold Lamé Booted Tangerine Messanger ( ) in Monaco...aaaaand we're back on topic

What The Deuces said:

I don't think the second place in the WDC is going to keep RBR or SP awake at night as its not really important to anyone and its been blown a bit out of proportion by the (social) media.

Except for Perez' comments until he was told to stfu

I can remember Perez holding up Lewis for a few laps yes, excellent driving and team work it was too.

How many laps do you think Max would have needed to hold off the Ferrari of CLC for last week? Less, same or more?

[MustangGT]

What The Deuces said:

I remember they were in the same car, the title was still live and Lewis didn't start doing it till the final stint around lap 30-35

Bit of a different situation.

So, how is it different? Both instances are about the leader backing up the second place man into the pack behind. Given the performance advantage the RBs had over the Ferraris at AD this year I would argue it would have been a lot easier for Max since the car following was slower. In 2016 the two cars were identical in terms of performance so the leader would be more vulnerable to an overtake.

The fact that Lewis managed it for 20+ laps absolutely proves it can be done. In 2016 my opinion is that Seb did not want to get involved and was quite happy for Nico to win the WDC, rather than Lewis, so he did not take him on for 2nd.

[PhilAsia]

What The Deuces said:

I can remember Perez holding up Lewis for a few laps yes, excellent driving and team work it was too.

You really do not understand me do you?

I said at the time I was impressed by Perez and how running him light and slow was a great team strategy to put Max back in contention.

What I object to is p o o r s p o r t s m a n s h i p and c h e a t i n g ! ! ! ! ! .

What The Deuces said:

How many laps do you think Max would have needed to hold off the Ferrari of CLC for last week? Less, same or more?

Let me consult my crystal ball....

[hot metal]

Also I can’t recal any driver sacrificing his own race to help his number 2 team mate get higher up the championship before.

Mansell gave up a win for Patrese in 92, I guess that just shows who he is.

[JNW1]

hot metal said:

Also I can’t recal any driver sacrificing his own race to help his number 2 team mate get higher up the championship before.

Try reading the thread - Schumacher could have won easily in Malaysia 1999 but instead elected to help Irvine's title challenge.

[paulguitar]

hot metal said:

Also I can’t recal any driver sacrificing his own race to help his number 2 team mate get higher up the championship before.

Mansell gave up a win for Patrese in 92, I guess that just shows who he is.

Mansell did his best to humiliate Patrese with the 'gifting', starting at Monza that year, where he let Ricardo through and then drove around welded to the gearbox of his car to make it as obvious as possible what he was doing.

[thegreenhell]

JNW1 said:

hot metal said:

Also I can’t recal any driver sacrificing his own race to help his number 2 team mate get higher up the championship before.

Try reading the thread - Schumacher could have won easily in Malaysia 1999 but instead elected to help Irvine's title challenge.

That wasn't really the same situation at all. There was a role reversal that meant Schu was the No 2 driver to Irvine due to their relative championship positions when he returned from his injury absence.

[Bas Jaski]

Pflanzgarten said:

Antonio Perez, father of Perez on Verstappen:

“Sergio never needed anything from anyone. Today Max already feels the breath of the 'Checo' in his helmet, for what he is demonstrating. He never had a similar teammate. Checo wins the races that Max can't, the really hard ones”

Some facts for Papa Perez:

1st race Perez won, Max taken out on lap 1. Great win though, no doubt about that. (yes I'm aware they weren't teammates at this point).

2nd race Perez won, Max leading more than comfortably but a Pirelli decided to call it a day with 2 laps to go kinda ruined that.

3rd race Perez won, mysterious Q3 crash when Max was well up on his lap on a track where overtaking is practically impossible (but, credit where it's due, the first Q3 lap from Perez was faster)

4th race Perez won, Max told to give up both his quali laps despite being a second up on each of them...over the rest of the field.

Maybe papa Perez needs to slightly rephrase his wording, as it currently seems to imply that Perez completely beat Max on pace rather than what actually transpired.

[PhilAsia]

Bas Jaski said:

Pflanzgarten said:

Antonio Perez, father of Perez on Verstappen:

“Sergio never needed anything from anyone. Today Max already feels the breath of the 'Checo' in his helmet, for what he is demonstrating. He never had a similar teammate. Checo wins the races that Max can't, the really hard ones”

Some facts for Papa Perez:

1st race Perez won, Max taken out on lap 1. Great win though, no doubt about that. (yes I'm aware they weren't teammates at this point).

2nd race Perez won, Max leading more than comfortably but a Pirelli decided to call it a day with 2 laps to go kinda ruined that.

3rd race Perez won, mysterious Q3 crash when Max was well up on his lap on a track where overtaking is practically impossible (but, credit where it's due, the first Q3 lap from Perez was faster)

4th race Perez won, Max told to give up both his quali laps despite being a second up on each of them...over the rest of the field.

Maybe papa Perez needs to slightly rephrase his wording, as it currently seems to imply that Perez completely beat Max on pace rather than what actually transpired.

I think anyone who watches F1 understands that Max is quicker than Perez, who is not as quick as Bottas over one lap, but 1000 times better at blocking overtakes.

[JNW1]

thegreenhell said:

JNW1 said:

hot metal said:

Also I can’t recal any driver sacrificing his own race to help his number 2 team mate get higher up the championship before.

Try reading the thread - Schumacher could have won easily in Malaysia 1999 but instead elected to help Irvine's title challenge.

That wasn't really the same situation at all. There was a role reversal that meant Schu was the No 2 driver to Irvine due to their relative championship positions when he returned from his injury absence.

Well yes but Schumacher still didn't have to agree to act as number two to help Irvine - nevertheless he did. You could argue he had nothing to lose as his broken leg had put him out of contention for the Championship; however, helping his teammate could have resulted in Irvine winning Ferrari's first driver's title for years, something Schumacher might not have been keen on given that's what he himself had been recruited to do. But he still helped as the team requested and, although he could have won the race easily, effectively handed it to Irvine on a plate.

In contrast, Verstappen had nothing to lose by helping Perez but, for reasons known only to himself and the team, he refused. As for Mansell and Patrese, again Mansell had nothing to lose as he already had the driver's title sewn-up; however, he did at least do what the team requested even though by then relations had broken down and he knew he was leaving.

[goldbazinga]

I don't hang around in the F1 forum very much, so apologies if there's a better thread for this, but how long are RB going to wait before they ditch Perez?

He's been atrocious all season, and It must be embarassing for RB to have 1 car winning by a country mile and getting pole position week in/week out, whilst the other misses Q3 with regularity and often ends up only in the arse end of the points.

[paulguitar]

goldbazinga said:

I don't hang around in the F1 forum very much, so apologies if there's a better thread for this, but how long are RB going to wait before they ditch Perez?

He's been atrocious all season, and It must be embarassing for RB to have 1 car winning by a country mile and getting pole position week in/week out, whilst the other misses Q3 with regularity and often ends up only in the arse end of the points.

I think he will be out at the end of this season.

But who will replace him? Ricciardo seems likely, and he may not do any better unless he can somehow access the excellent driver he was a few seasons ago again.

[goldbazinga]

paulguitar said:

I think he will be out at the end of this season.

But who will replace him? Ricciardo seems likely, and he may not do any better unless he can somehow access the excellent driver he was a few seasons ago again.

I'm confident that he'll be gone by the end of the season, but I can't understand why they don't get rid earlier. There's a bunch of younger drivers that would/could do a much better job, I don't understand why they are holding off making the change. He's had plenty of time this season to get over a blip in performance, so this is the level that he's driving at, which (by F1 standards) just isn't good enough.

[Blib]

Getting lapped by your teammate is less than ideal.

They may try Lawson? I hope that he doesn't go, as the Verstappen machine that is Red Bull will chew him up.

[kambites]

Maybe Redbull have finally realised that moving a driver with only half a season's experience into the top team and expecting them to perform is a recipe for destroying them!

If they were going to replace Perez I think it would have to be with Ricciardo, not because he's shown he deserves the seat but because he has the experience not to be destroyed by it. My guess is Redbull are going to stick with Perez not because he's worthy of the seat but because there's really no evidence anyone else who's available would do any better.

Edited by kambites on Monday 9th October 15:51

[paulguitar]

I'd like to see Alonso go to RB. That would be hugely entertaining in one way or another!