Sportsmanship - Does it exist in F1?
Discussion
Someone mentioned - I forget who - that there were no winners in sport, including F1, that were sportsmen and that they would do anything to achieve the "W". Whilst many will lower themselves (in my opinion) and show a lack of character in order to do so, I do not believe that is true, also of many.
In answering the poster, I put Efren "The Magician" Reyes forward as an example of a consummate sportsman. He has gained the respect of anyone and everyone that has ever held a cue, including the likes of Steve Davis and Rocket Ron, Bob Seigel and Earl Strickland to name a few.
His story is incredible. From sleeping on his uncle's table in a billiards hall as a boy, to inspiring the Tom Cruise film, "The Color of Money" - based around a money game for $100,000 in the 1980's that took place in HK between Efren and Earl Strickland. Efren's claw back to win was the stuff of legend.
Efren is the best ever rotation player I have ever witnessed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_(pool) ), a game that is incredibly difficult in complexity. He introduced the attacking kick and kick safe the the US pool game... The Buddha of Billiards.
Always a consummate gentleman. An approachable, unassuming and humble sportsman, who will be remembered forevermore as one of the best ever to wield a stick.
Please forgive his English.
I believe F1 does have, and has had, sporting champions. My modern era choices are:
Mika
Kimi
Lewis
Button
In no particular order....and all have minimal slightly dubious moments, but overall they were/are sporting in their behavior
But the floor is open for debate. Off you go....!!
In answering the poster, I put Efren "The Magician" Reyes forward as an example of a consummate sportsman. He has gained the respect of anyone and everyone that has ever held a cue, including the likes of Steve Davis and Rocket Ron, Bob Seigel and Earl Strickland to name a few.
His story is incredible. From sleeping on his uncle's table in a billiards hall as a boy, to inspiring the Tom Cruise film, "The Color of Money" - based around a money game for $100,000 in the 1980's that took place in HK between Efren and Earl Strickland. Efren's claw back to win was the stuff of legend.
Efren is the best ever rotation player I have ever witnessed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_(pool) ), a game that is incredibly difficult in complexity. He introduced the attacking kick and kick safe the the US pool game... The Buddha of Billiards.
Always a consummate gentleman. An approachable, unassuming and humble sportsman, who will be remembered forevermore as one of the best ever to wield a stick.
Please forgive his English.
I believe F1 does have, and has had, sporting champions. My modern era choices are:
Mika
Kimi
Lewis
Button
In no particular order....and all have minimal slightly dubious moments, but overall they were/are sporting in their behavior
But the floor is open for debate. Off you go....!!
There are multiple examples of sportsmen in sport and in F1. It doesn't have to be world champions - Felipe Massa is a famous example of someone who displayed great sportsmen integrity without actually reaching the ultimate goal.
The key is are there sportsmen who have reached the top and stayed there for an extended period. Were the best of the best sportsmen?
Of the list you have provided, only Hamilton really comes under that category and is the only driver of the modern era who you can really say dominated the sports whilst retaining that sense of right and wrong.
Verstappen, Vettel, Schumacher, Senna all displayed the ugly traits that disqualify them from consideration. That's not to say they weren't good drivers or that sportsmanship is a requirement for greatness btw.
The key is are there sportsmen who have reached the top and stayed there for an extended period. Were the best of the best sportsmen?
Of the list you have provided, only Hamilton really comes under that category and is the only driver of the modern era who you can really say dominated the sports whilst retaining that sense of right and wrong.
Verstappen, Vettel, Schumacher, Senna all displayed the ugly traits that disqualify them from consideration. That's not to say they weren't good drivers or that sportsmanship is a requirement for greatness btw.
This is what is perplexing to RB as a team. In their minds they've won, yet they and Max just aren't getting the adulation they feel they deserve. In my book it's all about their and especially Max's lack of sportsmanship. Even if we ignore the allegations of cheating last season.
His recent refusal to hand the place back to Cheko when it would have cost him nothing just emphasises lack of sportsmanship. As does Horners harassing Massi to change the accepted rules around safety cars last season. Win at all cost. It's ugly.
His recent refusal to hand the place back to Cheko when it would have cost him nothing just emphasises lack of sportsmanship. As does Horners harassing Massi to change the accepted rules around safety cars last season. Win at all cost. It's ugly.
Eddie Irvine - Great driver but soon realised that money was his main driver so why try to compete with MSC when you can gain far more by supporting him .
Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
Depends on your definition of sporting.
I don't think any F1 drivers are that sporting in their on-track behaviour. Sure, some are cleaner and more respectful than others but they all made it to the pinnacle of a sport that isn't a time trial event.
I think Lewis is one of, if not the most sporting champion of recent years. Is he a saint? Far from it - I could probably list dozens of unsporting misdemeanours from him. Although I culd probably list the same number from Max in a single season!
I don't think any F1 drivers are that sporting in their on-track behaviour. Sure, some are cleaner and more respectful than others but they all made it to the pinnacle of a sport that isn't a time trial event.
I think Lewis is one of, if not the most sporting champion of recent years. Is he a saint? Far from it - I could probably list dozens of unsporting misdemeanours from him. Although I culd probably list the same number from Max in a single season!
I do not think many f1 drivers are sporting in the greatest sense of the word.
That sort of thing died a long time before even the like of Senna and Prost and Mansell were battling.
Guys like Clark, Stewart, were sportsmen. Sport is nos so intrinsically linked to success and money tat is no longer just attracts sportsmen and women, it attracts those that find they can also make vast sums doing it, and this drives them as much as success, no mater what they say.
Every podcast I have listened to about even the 80's with drivers, off hand comes round to money somewhere along the line. And that is fine, but I do think this is now a bigger part than it was years ago. People wax lyrical about people like Mansell, Senna, Prost etc, but a lot of their decisions were money orientated.
Sportsmen deserve to be paid well, yes, but money does factor into decision, and this also makes them more ruthless I feel, combined with their natural competitive instinct.
Some can mature with age like Vettel, though I do think in the car he is a very different animal to out of the car. Rosberg was not hugely nasty on track, Button was not, Massa, Kimi was pretty fair despite being utterly miserable. So it can still be there.
That sort of thing died a long time before even the like of Senna and Prost and Mansell were battling.
Guys like Clark, Stewart, were sportsmen. Sport is nos so intrinsically linked to success and money tat is no longer just attracts sportsmen and women, it attracts those that find they can also make vast sums doing it, and this drives them as much as success, no mater what they say.
Every podcast I have listened to about even the 80's with drivers, off hand comes round to money somewhere along the line. And that is fine, but I do think this is now a bigger part than it was years ago. People wax lyrical about people like Mansell, Senna, Prost etc, but a lot of their decisions were money orientated.
Sportsmen deserve to be paid well, yes, but money does factor into decision, and this also makes them more ruthless I feel, combined with their natural competitive instinct.
Some can mature with age like Vettel, though I do think in the car he is a very different animal to out of the car. Rosberg was not hugely nasty on track, Button was not, Massa, Kimi was pretty fair despite being utterly miserable. So it can still be there.
Presuming Ed said:
Eddie Irvine - Great driver but soon realised that money was his main driver so why try to compete with MSC when you can gain far more by supporting him .
Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
I just assumed he knew he wasn't that good and a bit lazy, so did that nonchalant act of boasting about how much money he made in boring ways and going down the disco.Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
Probably sitting on his pile of gold and jewels now.
PhilAsia said:
Someone mentioned - I forget who - that there were no winners in sport, including F1, that were sportsmen and that they would do anything to achieve the "W". Whilst many will lower themselves (in my opinion) and show a lack of character in order to do so, I do not believe that is true, also of many.
In answering the poster, I put Efren "The Magician" Reyes forward as an example of a consummate sportsman. He has gained the respect of anyone and everyone that has ever held a cue, including the likes of Steve Davis and Rocket Ron, Bob Seigel and Earl Strickland to name a few.
His story is incredible. From sleeping on his uncle's table in a billiards hall as a boy, to inspiring the Tom Cruise film, "The Color of Money" - based around a money game for $100,000 in the 1980's that took place in HK between Efren and Earl Strickland. Efren's claw back to win was the stuff of legend.
Efren is the best ever rotation player I have ever witnessed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_(pool) ), a game that is incredibly difficult in complexity. He introduced the attacking kick and kick safe the the US pool game... The Buddha of Billiards.
Always a consummate gentleman. An approachable, unassuming and humble sportsman, who will be remembered forevermore as one of the best ever to wield a stick.
Please forgive his English.
I believe F1 does have, and has had, sporting champions. My modern era choices are:
Mika
Kimi
Lewis
Button
In no particular order....and all have minimal slightly dubious moments, but overall they were/are sporting in their behavior
But the floor is open for debate. Off you go....!!
Difficult to debate any of those four, except perhaps to say Mika (IMO) was both an exceptionally sporting competitor and lovely person in general.In answering the poster, I put Efren "The Magician" Reyes forward as an example of a consummate sportsman. He has gained the respect of anyone and everyone that has ever held a cue, including the likes of Steve Davis and Rocket Ron, Bob Seigel and Earl Strickland to name a few.
His story is incredible. From sleeping on his uncle's table in a billiards hall as a boy, to inspiring the Tom Cruise film, "The Color of Money" - based around a money game for $100,000 in the 1980's that took place in HK between Efren and Earl Strickland. Efren's claw back to win was the stuff of legend.
Efren is the best ever rotation player I have ever witnessed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_(pool) ), a game that is incredibly difficult in complexity. He introduced the attacking kick and kick safe the the US pool game... The Buddha of Billiards.
Always a consummate gentleman. An approachable, unassuming and humble sportsman, who will be remembered forevermore as one of the best ever to wield a stick.
Please forgive his English.
I believe F1 does have, and has had, sporting champions. My modern era choices are:
Mika
Kimi
Lewis
Button
In no particular order....and all have minimal slightly dubious moments, but overall they were/are sporting in their behavior
But the floor is open for debate. Off you go....!!
Stirling Moss defending Mike Hawthorn to reverse a disqualification that the stewards were about to apply in 1958 which meant Moss lost that years championship to Hawthorn springs to mind.
Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
fizzwheel said:
Stirling Moss defending Mike Hawthorn to reverse a disqualification that the stewards were about to apply in 1958 which meant Moss lost that years championship to Hawthorn springs to mind.
Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
Yes, that took immense strength of character and understanding of what defines sportsmanship. A similar strength that Lewis showed after AD, but for accepting the decision of the stewards.Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
FeelingLucky said:
Difficult to debate any of those four, except perhaps to say Mika (IMO) was both an exceptionally sporting competitor and lovely person in general.
I only ever recall Mika being the same. Before his accident he was quicker over one lap than Schumi, but marginally less consistent over a full race distance. I may be wrong, but I only ever remember him mentioning on one occasion him being slightly unimpressed, and that was when he saw on German media that Schumi said he had seen Mika overtaking at Macau, to take him out for the F3 title. Just after the race he had said he had not seen him. Otherwise he generally praised.Mika's racing was, as you say, exceptionally sporting given the lengths/track limits Schumi would go to, especially given they were so closely matched in terms of talent.
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.Fundoreen said:
Presuming Ed said:
Eddie Irvine - Great driver but soon realised that money was his main driver so why try to compete with MSC when you can gain far more by supporting him .
Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
I just assumed he knew he wasn't that good and a bit lazy, so did that nonchalant act of boasting about how much money he made in boring ways and going down the disco.Is that sportmans not really. I contend that all drivers currently in F1 want to win. Think they are the best and don't have the luxury of sportsmanship. Unless your Max or Lewis your only as good as your last race.
Probably sitting on his pile of gold and jewels now.
Runner up in the WDC in 1999, 4 wins, 26 podiums.
Yeah what a loser - rolls eyes.
PhilAsia said:
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.He died at the 1958 French GP, a race allegedly he supposed to have to won to pay off gambling debts but due to the friendship of Hawthorn and Collins, Musso was pushed to the limits and to his death.
entropy said:
PhilAsia said:
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.He died at the 1958 French GP, a race allegedly he supposed to have to won to pay off gambling debts but due to the friendship of Hawthorn and Collins, Musso was pushed to the limits and to his death.
Fundoreen said:
I just assumed he knew he wasn't that good and a bit lazy, so did that nonchalant act of boasting about how much money he made in boring ways and going down the disco.
Probably sitting on his pile of gold and jewels now.
I love the casual dismissal of someone who won 4 Grands Prix and came second in the Championship as 'not that good', as if any track day hero could do as well . Irvine was not as good as Schumacher , but unlike other team mates Irvine had the wit to admit it , rather than whingeing. He was a fine driver , hard as nails , smart and , stroppy ; he certainly impressed me when he unlapped himself , to the great god Senna's ire, in his first GP . Probably sitting on his pile of gold and jewels now.
I loved a quote by him when he said that as a Ferrari driver, he could sleep with any girl in Italy and delight their brothers in doing so .
Harry H said:
This is what is perplexing to RB as a team. In their minds they've won, yet they and Max just aren't getting the adulation they feel they deserve. In my book it's all about their and especially Max's lack of sportsmanship. Even if we ignore the allegations of cheating last season.
His recent refusal to hand the place back to Cheko when it would have cost him nothing just emphasises lack of sportsmanship. As does Horners harassing Massi to change the accepted rules around safety cars last season. Win at all cost. It's ugly.
This is a really good point.His recent refusal to hand the place back to Cheko when it would have cost him nothing just emphasises lack of sportsmanship. As does Horners harassing Massi to change the accepted rules around safety cars last season. Win at all cost. It's ugly.
Red bull thought they cared about winning.
Maybe they are finding out they care about being viewed as winners.
LukeBrown66 said:
Every podcast I have listened to about even the 80's with drivers, off hand comes round to money somewhere along the line. And that is fine, but I do think this is now a bigger part than it was years ago. People wax lyrical about people like Mansell, Senna, Prost etc, but a lot of their decisions were money orientated.
Sportsmen deserve to be paid well, yes, but money does factor into decision, and this also makes them more ruthless I feel, combined with their natural competitive instinct.
Sportspeople are competitive and money is another objectively measurable indicator of success. Most of the major sports (because they are team based) cloud individual ability to some degree. But money… well, the F1 drivers can all compare their salaries. And psychologically, we know that past a very low base, for individual satisfaction relative ‘wealth’ is more important than absolute. (i.e. if you’re neighbour has the escort 1.3 L, better get the LX).Sportsmen deserve to be paid well, yes, but money does factor into decision, and this also makes them more ruthless I feel, combined with their natural competitive instinct.
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