Sportsmanship - Does it exist in F1?
Discussion
Never been a Chapman fan for this very reason, he was perhaps not what I would call a cheat like Walkinshaw maybe, but he was someone who overlooked safety for speed, only a genius like Jimmy could have won so many races and titles in one of those things. Plus all the DeLorean stuff for me totally put an end to any feelings of admiration I had for the man, plus talking to a few people who worked with him or suffered working with him.
I would class Murray and Newey way above Colin, as they at least made safe, quick and clever cars! And also very pretty ones
I would class Murray and Newey way above Colin, as they at least made safe, quick and clever cars! And also very pretty ones
coppice said:
I think it was Ken Tyrrell with the lead shot in tanks surely , in 1984 ? I also liked the ...err..water cooled brakes some DFV teams used - all the water being ejected in the first lap or two , but having served its purpose of adding weight to get the car above the minimum
Yep, Tyrrell were disqualified from the entire championshipBrabhams brakes were awesome though, not so much cheating, as reading the rules and complying with the letter of them (but not the intended spirit). IIRC the car dumped nearly all of the water at the end of the pitlane before they even got on track
In sportscars you had the TWR fuel churns which enabled Jaguar to win LM in 1988. they wouldn't have won without
paul, I would say those drivers were similarly able to drive within their limits to win, and Mario had a huge advantage with the 79 let's face it. Graham, was a grafter, and a hard taskmaster just like Colin, Rindt was a total natural and butted heads with Champman a lot, and Emmo, I dont really know much about, before my time, and not really written about much despite his winning.
LukeBrown66 said:
paul, I would say those drivers were similarly able to drive within their limits to win, and Mario had a huge advantage with the 79 let's face it. Graham, was a grafter, and a hard taskmaster just like Colin, Rindt was a total natural and butted heads with Champman a lot, and Emmo, I dont really know much about, before my time, and not really written about much despite his winning.
Nobody could take their focus off his huge conk!"I..., I'm sorry....., what did you say again?"
PhilAsia said:
entropy said:
PhilAsia said:
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.He died at the 1958 French GP, a race allegedly he supposed to have to won to pay off gambling debts but due to the friendship of Hawthorn and Collins, Musso was pushed to the limits and to his death.
It’s been said Musso should have been allowed to win the 1958 French GP to help pay off those debts but this was never formally confirmed and only his then girlfriend alleges this and blames the rivalry with Hawthorn/Collins – the Brits were best mates and pooled their prized money together.
Whatever you think of Musso and the background to his death it is perhaps easy to look back on past eras and say they were different times when there were possible shades of grey. The driving standards were generally far, far better than today but then there was Giuseppe Farina who was notorious for his chopping and blocking manoeuvres.
entropy said:
PhilAsia said:
entropy said:
PhilAsia said:
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.He died at the 1958 French GP, a race allegedly he supposed to have to won to pay off gambling debts but due to the friendship of Hawthorn and Collins, Musso was pushed to the limits and to his death.
It’s been said Musso should have been allowed to win the 1958 French GP to help pay off those debts but this was never formally confirmed and only his then girlfriend alleges this and blames the rivalry with Hawthorn/Collins – the Brits were best mates and pooled their prized money together.
Whatever you think of Musso and the background to his death it is perhaps easy to look back on past eras and say they were different times when there were possible shades of grey. The driving standards were generally far, far better than today but then there was Giuseppe Farina who was notorious for his chopping and blocking manoeuvres.
PhilAsia said:
chris_gilmartin said:
Peter Collins gave his car to Fangio, and gave up his crack at the championship in the process, see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/nov/25...
Yes indeed. Different times, but still the best of their times.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czvqkdvpgjpo
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wyr...
Timely that this thread should get a bump.
Was watching the Villeneuve Pironi documentary the other day and it got me think that what happened between them marked the beginning of the end of 'old fashioned' sportsmanship in F1. Prior top then, F1 drivers were all - on the whole - mates. They'd go on holiday together, go to parties together and on track seemed to fight fair. What happened between Villeneuve and Pironi showed that even your best mates can do the dirty on you if there's a win to be had and I think that shifted the paradigm for every driver since.
Was watching the Villeneuve Pironi documentary the other day and it got me think that what happened between them marked the beginning of the end of 'old fashioned' sportsmanship in F1. Prior top then, F1 drivers were all - on the whole - mates. They'd go on holiday together, go to parties together and on track seemed to fight fair. What happened between Villeneuve and Pironi showed that even your best mates can do the dirty on you if there's a win to be had and I think that shifted the paradigm for every driver since.
StevieBee said:
Timely that this thread should get a bump.
Was watching the Villeneuve Pironi documentary the other day and it got me think that what happened between them marked the beginning of the end of 'old fashioned' sportsmanship in F1. Prior top then, F1 drivers were all - on the whole - mates. They'd go on holiday together, go to parties together and on track seemed to fight fair. What happened between Villeneuve and Pironi showed that even your best mates can do the dirty on you if there's a win to be had and I think that shifted the paradigm for every driver since.
Might be worth watching the Bernie documentary series.Was watching the Villeneuve Pironi documentary the other day and it got me think that what happened between them marked the beginning of the end of 'old fashioned' sportsmanship in F1. Prior top then, F1 drivers were all - on the whole - mates. They'd go on holiday together, go to parties together and on track seemed to fight fair. What happened between Villeneuve and Pironi showed that even your best mates can do the dirty on you if there's a win to be had and I think that shifted the paradigm for every driver since.
I think the winner-takes-all mentality coincided with the way F1 was developing as a professional sport in the 70s into the 80s ditching non-championship races and getting more money for the championship - TV and tobacco in particular - and drivers specializing in F1.
Also worth noting, if one were so inclined, could have a media/public profile by emulating Jackie Stewart to increase earning potential.
Saying that it's refreshing hearing how Russell & Albon are still good mates, the former recommending the latter to take over the Williams seat. Would be interesting if they do become Merc teammates with a WDC on the line.
It's tempting but misleading to mourn a lost era of gentlemanly behaviour on track. I saw my first GP in 1971 and people were doing the same about Fifties racing . But anybody who tries to persuade me that Mike Hawthorn was some carefree knight of the track will get short shrift - this was the man who was the principal cause of the Le Mans disaster in 1955 , yet raced on to win and wondered why his champagne swigging victory celebrations didn't go down to well...
I started watching in the Stewart era - and there was no love lost between Tyrell and Ferrari , and even less when McLaren and Ferrari duked it out in 76. And so it carried on - from fan car to Lotus 88 controversy , Brabham's rocket fuel etc etc . What has changed , and not for the better , is the size of the rule book and the absurd penalty regime . The latter especially - I am sick and tired of drivers bleating at every opportunity -"Look , look what the nasty man just did , he pushed me off .." Grow up.
I started watching in the Stewart era - and there was no love lost between Tyrell and Ferrari , and even less when McLaren and Ferrari duked it out in 76. And so it carried on - from fan car to Lotus 88 controversy , Brabham's rocket fuel etc etc . What has changed , and not for the better , is the size of the rule book and the absurd penalty regime . The latter especially - I am sick and tired of drivers bleating at every opportunity -"Look , look what the nasty man just did , he pushed me off .." Grow up.
entropy said:
Might be worth watching the Bernie documentary series.
I think the winner-takes-all mentality coincided with the way F1 was developing as a professional sport in the 70s into the 80s ditching non-championship races and getting more money for the championship - TV and tobacco in particular - and drivers specializing in F1.
Also worth noting, if one were so inclined, could have a media/public profile by emulating Jackie Stewart to increase earning potential.
Saying that it's refreshing hearing how Russell & Albon are still good mates, the former recommending the latter to take over the Williams seat. Would be interesting if they do become Merc teammates with a WDC on the line.
Loads of the current younger drivers have known each other for a decade or more, from British and European karting. I think the winner-takes-all mentality coincided with the way F1 was developing as a professional sport in the 70s into the 80s ditching non-championship races and getting more money for the championship - TV and tobacco in particular - and drivers specializing in F1.
Also worth noting, if one were so inclined, could have a media/public profile by emulating Jackie Stewart to increase earning potential.
Saying that it's refreshing hearing how Russell & Albon are still good mates, the former recommending the latter to take over the Williams seat. Would be interesting if they do become Merc teammates with a WDC on the line.
I suspect that some of the friendships will last until they have to fight hard between them for a championship - Lewis and Nico were friends for ages until 2015, and have only in the last couple of years really become friends again despite living in the same building in Monaco.
PhilAsia said:
fizzwheel said:
Stirling Moss defending Mike Hawthorn to reverse a disqualification that the stewards were about to apply in 1958 which meant Moss lost that years championship to Hawthorn springs to mind.
Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
Yes, that took immense strength of character and understanding of what defines sportsmanship. A similar strength that Lewis showed after AD, but for accepting the decision of the stewards.Different era, different times, but that one always springs to mind when this sort of thing is discussed.
Can't see any driver in the modern era doing anything like that now though.
Agree with fizzwheel, Stirling's level of sportmanship hasn't existed for many decades.
Bo_apex said:
philasia - are you really trying to compare the generosity of Stirling Moss with LH losing in AD and not sticking his bottom lip out ?
Referring to Hamilton's extraordinarily dignified behaviour after the disgrace of AD as 'not sticking his bottom lip out' is properly pathetic, even for you.Sportsmanship can be displayed in many ways. On the face of it, simply following the rules is showing sportsmanship. Leaving a cars width, not moving under braking etc are all acts of being a good sport. Motor sport simply wouldn't exist without basic sportsmanship and trust between competitors and teams.
Of course there are more specific examples of sportsmanship that go beyond the basic requirements of the sport, such as Moss handing his car to Fangio and thus not becoming world champion himself. Or when drivers have stopped to help others after an accident regardless of the damage to their own race. Senna with Comas springs to mind.
Equally, F1 has shown the opposite over the years too. Drivers running others off the road, teams cheating both mechanically and financially, and even the governing body not playing by the rules themselves.
Every sport has sportsmanship, but it wouldn't be sport without testing the limits of what is acceptable. I think F1 is a better example of that than most others.
Of course there are more specific examples of sportsmanship that go beyond the basic requirements of the sport, such as Moss handing his car to Fangio and thus not becoming world champion himself. Or when drivers have stopped to help others after an accident regardless of the damage to their own race. Senna with Comas springs to mind.
Equally, F1 has shown the opposite over the years too. Drivers running others off the road, teams cheating both mechanically and financially, and even the governing body not playing by the rules themselves.
Every sport has sportsmanship, but it wouldn't be sport without testing the limits of what is acceptable. I think F1 is a better example of that than most others.
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