What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Discussion
maz8062 said:
Pay attention folks. RBR played a blinder in all of this. They saw the long game and outplayed Merc, Ferrari and the lot of them. Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026.
RBR, you’ll remember, insisted on having the engine regs locked in when Honda announced that they were leaving the sport. They got the teams to agree to their terms, Honda’s terms and then went about building one hell of an engine while Honda didn’t really leave the sport, they just used their exit as a bargaining chip.
And they cheated in the first year of a cost cap when they knew the penalty for transgression would likely be a lot smaller, and anyone who does that in future will be treated much more harshly, thus cementing the cheating advantage.RBR, you’ll remember, insisted on having the engine regs locked in when Honda announced that they were leaving the sport. They got the teams to agree to their terms, Honda’s terms and then went about building one hell of an engine while Honda didn’t really leave the sport, they just used their exit as a bargaining chip.
thegreenhell said:
maz8062 said:
Pay attention folks. RBR played a blinder in all of this. They saw the long game and outplayed Merc, Ferrari and the lot of them. Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026.
RBR, you’ll remember, insisted on having the engine regs locked in when Honda announced that they were leaving the sport. They got the teams to agree to their terms, Honda’s terms and then went about building one hell of an engine while Honda didn’t really leave the sport, they just used their exit as a bargaining chip.
And they cheated in the first year of a cost cap when they knew the penalty for transgression would likely be a lot smaller, and anyone who does that in future will be treated much more harshly, thus cementing the cheating advantage.RBR, you’ll remember, insisted on having the engine regs locked in when Honda announced that they were leaving the sport. They got the teams to agree to their terms, Honda’s terms and then went about building one hell of an engine while Honda didn’t really leave the sport, they just used their exit as a bargaining chip.
They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a
decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.
I think if I was Merc and Ferrari, I’d go stuff the cost cap. Spend a bloody fortune to catch up then dare the fia, f1 to give out a harsher penalty than they did to red bull under the threat of them both leaving F1.
Without Merc and Ferrari F1 becomes a none entity that nobody is interested in.
Would be interesting to see what would happen. The FIA/F1 would have to have big balls to do it..
Wont happen but I would love to see it, otherwise up to 2026, f1 is going to be a borefest
Without Merc and Ferrari F1 becomes a none entity that nobody is interested in.
Would be interesting to see what would happen. The FIA/F1 would have to have big balls to do it..
Wont happen but I would love to see it, otherwise up to 2026, f1 is going to be a borefest
Muzzer79 said:
DOCG said:
Muzzer79 said:
You'd make a statement like that after one 3 day test and one race weekend? You think fans would respect throwing the towel in so early? 
I mean...if they're still in this position in the summer then maybe but talk about getting carried away.......In any case, it's not "the truth" - it's your opinion.
You need to have a proven, seriously, fundamentally flawed car to write it off after one race.
Not one that finished fifth, was half a second off pole and two tenths off the pace in FP3.
It's not "throwing the towel in" but prioritising future development over a season that will not be competitive (considering their team goal is to compete for titles). I mean...if they're still in this position in the summer then maybe but talk about getting carried away.......In any case, it's not "the truth" - it's your opinion.
You need to have a proven, seriously, fundamentally flawed car to write it off after one race.
Not one that finished fifth, was half a second off pole and two tenths off the pace in FP3.
The reality is that they will not compete at the front of the grid this year, the development gap to RB is huge. It's easy to tell at the beginning of an F1 season which teams will be competitive. Do you think it is also too early to write off the chances of Williams winning the title?
Do you realise the absurdity of that?
If you want to fight for the positions and money from 2nd backwards go for it. If you want to compete for a title don’t bother this year.
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Edited by Blib on Wednesday 15th March 08:12
Blib said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Edited by Blib on Wednesday 15th March 08:12
Piginapoke said:
Blib said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 08:34
I’ll go off topic to prove a point. Liberty media paid $8bn for F1 in 2016. Today it is conservatively valued at $20bn. F1 is also a closed shop to new entrants and the teams that compete are multi billion dollar companies that share in the equity growth of the sport. Why does this sport need any form of cost cap, including caps on employee salaries? Why? Who is gaining from these savings? The owners of the teams of course.
The cost cap is not closing up the field. The same teams are at the top and the same teams will win the WDC/WCC, so what’s the point of the cost cap and how does it improve the show? If the teams are effectively classified at the beginning of the season, what’s the point in watching it?
Because of the cost cap, testing ban, engine regs freeze, cap on key workers etc. It is nigh on impossible to catch the front during the season. Merc have the money, the drivers, the infrastructure and the expertise, but their chances of getting to the front during the season is nigh on impossible, and they can’t afford the publicity of being called cheats. So they’ll have to continue with the current philosophy and hope for change in 24 by which time RBR and Ferrari will have had a 2 year head start on them.
The question we have to ask ourselves as motorsport and F1 fans is if all these restrictions are worth it. The value of the F1 brand would indicate that it is - I’m not sure I agree.
The cost cap is not closing up the field. The same teams are at the top and the same teams will win the WDC/WCC, so what’s the point of the cost cap and how does it improve the show? If the teams are effectively classified at the beginning of the season, what’s the point in watching it?
Because of the cost cap, testing ban, engine regs freeze, cap on key workers etc. It is nigh on impossible to catch the front during the season. Merc have the money, the drivers, the infrastructure and the expertise, but their chances of getting to the front during the season is nigh on impossible, and they can’t afford the publicity of being called cheats. So they’ll have to continue with the current philosophy and hope for change in 24 by which time RBR and Ferrari will have had a 2 year head start on them.
The question we have to ask ourselves as motorsport and F1 fans is if all these restrictions are worth it. The value of the F1 brand would indicate that it is - I’m not sure I agree.
TheDeuce said:
My view is that its very poor that they cheated, and extremely poor that they acted so wounded and astounded at such accusations after all the finger pointing they have done themselves over the years! But it doesn't actually prove a 'significant' cheating advantage - although I accept that any extra amount of money is an unfair advantage. The problem is, given their supreme dominance last season, I simply don't believe enough of that would have been wiped out were it not for a relatively minor budget overspend. I'm not an RB fan but I am realistic and logical, I'm an engineer. There is no way in hell they ended up so much faster - and continue so much faster this season, because of the overspend. They got their solution for their concept to work better than Merc got their solution for their own concept to work.
They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.
We also need to consider the FIA in this. Was the overspend actually much more, such that would have resulted in an absolute requirement for them to be disqualified? This is something I cannot see the FIA ever doing. Agree a lower amount, no appeal and the results stay the same?They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a
decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.We will never know, but the thought will always be there.
MustangGT said:
TheDeuce said:
My view is that its very poor that they cheated, and extremely poor that they acted so wounded and astounded at such accusations after all the finger pointing they have done themselves over the years! But it doesn't actually prove a 'significant' cheating advantage - although I accept that any extra amount of money is an unfair advantage. The problem is, given their supreme dominance last season, I simply don't believe enough of that would have been wiped out were it not for a relatively minor budget overspend. I'm not an RB fan but I am realistic and logical, I'm an engineer. There is no way in hell they ended up so much faster - and continue so much faster this season, because of the overspend. They got their solution for their concept to work better than Merc got their solution for their own concept to work.
They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.
We also need to consider the FIA in this. Was the overspend actually much more, such that would have resulted in an absolute requirement for them to be disqualified? This is something I cannot see the FIA ever doing. Agree a lower amount, no appeal and the results stay the same?They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a
decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.We will never know, but the thought will always be there.
Claim it's all too difficult to comply in the overspend cap in first season and then carry the advantage moving forward..., with harsher penalties for those that do the same.
F1 2021 onwards will be a hard pill to swallow...
HustleRussell said:
Piginapoke said:
Blib said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Mercedes have had the resources and budget to tackle any issues they've encountered in the last decade, with sheer sledgehammer force, in terms of their spending.
They'd have nailed the porpoising and had a winning car after a couple of races last year, if they'd retained their previous levels of workforce, production and spending. They are yet to be able to demonstrate the ability to have the same kind of agility and speed of resolution finding, within the new ceiling that they've had imposed.
maz8062 said:
The cost cap is not closing up the field.
Did you not watch qualifying and the race ?Sure, Red Bull are still out in front by a margin, however the times between all teams is closer, and there were three different teams fighting for 3rd, 4th and 5th in the race.
With the additional development time and resources for the lower finishing teams, the gap will close further.
MustangGT said:
TheDeuce said:
My view is that its very poor that they cheated, and extremely poor that they acted so wounded and astounded at such accusations after all the finger pointing they have done themselves over the years! But it doesn't actually prove a 'significant' cheating advantage - although I accept that any extra amount of money is an unfair advantage. The problem is, given their supreme dominance last season, I simply don't believe enough of that would have been wiped out were it not for a relatively minor budget overspend. I'm not an RB fan but I am realistic and logical, I'm an engineer. There is no way in hell they ended up so much faster - and continue so much faster this season, because of the overspend. They got their solution for their concept to work better than Merc got their solution for their own concept to work.
They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.
We also need to consider the FIA in this. Was the overspend actually much more, such that would have resulted in an absolute requirement for them to be disqualified? This is something I cannot see the FIA ever doing. Agree a lower amount, no appeal and the results stay the same?They cheated, that is a matter of fact. They gained a performance advantage, also a matter of fact. They were certainly let of very lightly too. But none of those accepted facts leads me to believe they would not still have been victorious last season had they played straight.
2021 is very different, they were approx equally matched to Merc but there was regulatory gameplay involved, Merc should have won that season - it was a season of endless regulatory influence to keep the battle alive and in the final moments a person that can only be described as a bit of a
decided to re-write the restart rules at the demand of the team that would clearly be the most exciting team to win for the viewers.. I don't want to 'go there' tbh, but let's just say that compared to the RB overspend, the Masi/FIA nurturing of 21' results from start to finish is by far the biggest upset in terms of fair play imo.We will never know, but the thought will always be there.
Time to take off the foil hats!
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
I agree with this apart from the part in bold. What wasn't level about it prior to the budget cap?Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.
That's like saying Red Bull had real difficulty in 2014 when they no longer had a dominant aero package with the blown floor - "in other words a level playing field".
mat205125 said:
maz8062 said:
The cost cap is not closing up the field.
Did you not watch qualifying and the race ?Sure, Red Bull are still out in front by a margin, however the times between all teams is closer, and there were three different teams fighting for 3rd, 4th and 5th in the race.
With the additional development time and resources for the lower finishing teams, the gap will close further.
e’s draws. The cost cap hasn’t changed anything other than to throttle excellence.Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
I agree with this apart from the part in bold. What wasn't level about it prior to the budget cap?Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.
That's like saying Red Bull had real difficulty in 2014 when they no longer had a dominant aero package with the blown floor - "in other words a level playing field".
What I don’t like is the sense of entitlement that the team now has, the letter to fans this week being a good example. It would be better advised to get its head down and address the problems (rather than doubling down on a flawed concept that looks a lot like stubbornness to me).
maz8062 said:
Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026...
Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...
How do you explain the performance jump that Aston Martin made from 22-23 and why can't Mercedes make the same % improvement?Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...
Pflanzgarten said:
maz8062 said:
Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026...
Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...
How do you explain the performance jump that Aston Martin made from 22-23 and why can't Mercedes make the same % improvement?Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...
They've also put one of the sports all time most instinctive racers behind the wheel, and due to their 2022 ranking, they have ample opportunity to develop and test their designs for the first half of 2023 too.
Mercedes are at a junction where they must continue with their concept, or move in a new direction. Finishing in the top three in 2022 means they'll be making those decisions and developments with less resources than Aston, as well as six other teams too.
This restrictions and controls of development is really exciting for the sport, and should prevent a repeat of a decade of superiority like Mercedes enjoyed ...... Red Bull is currently a bit of an anomaly, who did a great job at the very outset of the new ground effect regs, principally thanks to Newey and team. Their advantage won't last a decade!!
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