What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?

[mat205125]

maz8062 said:

What RBR got away with last year and are still dominating the sport today without the teams still moaning about it is proof to me that the teams don't care.

In the hyper-competitive world of F1, "the teams don't care"

[HustleRussell]

mat205125 said:

maz8062 said:

What RBR got away with last year and are still dominating the sport today without the teams still moaning about it is proof to me that the teams don't care.

In the hyper-competitive world of F1, "the teams don't care"

A ridiculous thing to say indeed.

[skwdenyer]

500TORQUES said:

Going forward and now in place, F1 is by design, no longer a level playing field. The rules are designed specifically to punish the teams that are currently successful and advantage the teams that are currently not successful. The level playing field is gone.

It was never a level playing field, because teams don't start with a clean slate / fresh staff / etc. each season.

If I spend 2x your budget for 5 seasons, I'm likely to have built up a very considerable pool of talent, corporate knowledge, assets, facilities, data, and so on. Even if we all have the same budget *this year* it is not a level playing field, because I have a huge head start / you have a major historical debt.

The current F1 cost cap formula is the most likely to lead to a real world level(ish) playing field, by allowing teams to catch up on the tech debt.

It is by far the best of the available options to improve and maintain the racing spectacle - and create / preserve long-term value in *all* of the teams.

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

[500TORQUES]

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

[Niponeoff]

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

[MustangGT]

maz8062 said:

mat205125 said:

MustangGT said:

mat205125 said:

You confuse the accounting with some kind of closed shop syndicate run by a mafia type FIA.

Time to take off the foil hats!

As an ex-accountant myself I know all too well how easy it is to fudge figures. Given the actions of the FIA and F1 during 2021, 2022 and in earlier years, I have no idea whether what I described actually happened, but, I do know that it is entirely possible and that we will never know the truth.

How does your potential suspicions extend to the reasons for other teams not appealing or questioning any of the results??

The teams are all the beneficiaries in all of this. Arguing among themselves will only damage the F1 brand and cost them money. There’s no relegation or promotion and the sport is valued at $20bn - there’s no incentive to argue the toss and shoot themselves in the foot.

The direction of travel of F1 is to grow the brand and make lots and lots of cash. The winner is not really that important because Sky will make sure that they’ll all get adequate TV exposure and the prize money and sponsorship deals makes F1 the place to be.

What RBR got away with last year and are still dominating the sport today without the teams still moaning about it is proof to me that the teams don't care.

Absolutely this. Why do you think MB did not take the WDC result of 2021 to the court of arbitration?

[Siao]

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

[Muzzer79]

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

[500TORQUES]

Bernie took it from worthless to worth billions, as a percentage growth he will massively outstrip anyones efforts.

Without Bernie, it would still be a low profile sport, not one of the most recognised in the world.

[Siao]

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

[Siao]

500TORQUES said:

Bernie took it from worthless to worth billions, as a percentage growth he will massively outstrip anyones efforts.

Without Bernie, it would still be a low profile sport, not one of the most recognised in the world.

Yes, also it was a different era, he had to fight with Balestre to get more money for the teams. He leased the rights for peanuts from Max, so it was massively profitable for himself. His impact was different than Liberty's frankly.

[Muzzer79]

Siao said:

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

You asked in what sense Liberty were doing better than Bernie, citing Bernie's profitability......I answered

[Niponeoff]

Siao said:

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

According to 500 torques they haven't done well internationally.

Do we really have to explain how conversations go? You start of with one thing and end up talking about something else, that's what happens. Do keep up.

[Siao]

Niponeoff said:

Siao said:

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

According to 500 torques they haven't done well internationally.

Do we really have to explain how conversations go? You start of with one thing and end up talking about something else, that's what happens. Do keep up.

No need for that mate. My post was clearly jesting, keep up

[PhilAsia]

Niponeoff said:

Siao said:

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

According to 500 torques they haven't done well internationally.

Do we really have to explain how conversations go? You start of with one thing and end up talking about something else, that's what happens. Do keep up.

Can we keep this to the 2023 season please...

[Siao]

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Muzzer79 said:

Siao said:

Niponeoff said:

500TORQUES said:

skwdenyer said:

The Americans haven't been good at running F1 teams; they're very good at building a profitable sports franchise, however.

Domestically yes, internationally no.

They're doing a better job in the short time they've owned F1 than Bernie ever did.

In what sense? Bernie was super profitable, his own pocket at least!

I think I heard on Coulthard's new F1 podcast the other day that Liberty bought F1 for around $5bn and if they were to sell to the Middle Easterns now, it would be circa $15-$20bn.

I think that qualifies as "very good at building a profitable sports franchise" and far exceeds anything Ecclestone managed.

There is also the value in the teams themselves, which Liberty have driven. Who knew, for example, that Dorilton got such a bargain in 2020

Did anyone say that Liberty didn't do well?

You asked in what sense Liberty were doing better than Bernie, citing Bernie's profitability......I answered

I was jesting, that Bernie did well for himself. Clearly if someone sells something 4 times the value the bought it for, they have done well...

[SturdyHSV]

PhilAsia said:

Can we keep this to the 2023 season please...

What he said

(See, we can agree PA )

[500TORQUES]

Niponeoff said:

According to 500 torques they haven't done well internationally.

Do we really have to explain how conversations go? You start of with one thing and end up talking about something else, that's what happens. Do keep up.

I suggest you read what i wrote.

The Americans are good at building domestic franchises such as the NFL, NBA and baseball, they dont expand beyond the USA with these franchise models, possibly because in many countries it's an illegal cartel practice. The USA has specific legislation to exempt these franchises from the closed shop laws every other US business has to operate under.

I wouldn't be surprised if this new closed shop model F1 has adopted comes under scrutiny from the EU/UK law makers, because it likely breaks EU and UK law.

It wouldn't be the first time F1 was forced to change its practices because of EU law, the recent Liberty working group that came up with the new regulations potentially broke that law, which is why that technical group now work for the FIA and no longer for Liberty.

[Siao]

SturdyHSV said:

PhilAsia said:

Can we keep this to the 2023 season please...

What he said

(See, we can agree PA )

Yup

[maz8062]

500TORQUES said:

Niponeoff said:

According to 500 torques they haven't done well internationally.

Do we really have to explain how conversations go? You start of with one thing and end up talking about something else, that's what happens. Do keep up.

I suggest you read what i wrote.

The Americans are good at building domestic franchises such as the NFL, NBA and baseball, they dont expand beyond the USA with these franchise models, possibly because in many countries it's an illegal cartel practice. The USA has specific legislation to exempt these franchises from the closed shop laws every other US business has to operate under.

I wouldn't be surprised if this new closed shop model F1 has adopted comes under scrutiny from the EU/UK law makers, because it likely breaks EU and UK law.

It wouldn't be the first time F1 was forced to change its practices because of EU law, the recent Liberty working group that came up with the new regulations potentially broke that law, which is why that technical group now work for the FIA and no longer for Liberty.

What! How have we gone from Americans not being good at marketing to Europe - forgetting the stellar performance of Liberty, to F1 will soon be under the gaze of the authorities for a being a cartel. Weird.