What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
Starting ahead is a huge advantage of course, but Merc wouldn't be guilty of putting one driver ahead of the other (in terms of team politics) if they, for example, had GR up front complaining about his tyres and Lewis behind, who might have managed his tyres better - and then asking GR to let Lewis pass. It's possible for the car behind on track to be identified as the faster car that day, and it's not favouritism or picking a number one to put that car ahead, it's just common sense.
The point I'm making is that GR is going to have to rise to Lewis's level of race craft even it does turn out that GR more often qualifies ahead.
Mercedes don't have a number one driver, at least not until they're obviously in the hunt for a title - which is fair enough. But logically, whoever they calculate has the best chance of scoring the highest result at any GP, should for that GP be prioritised.
They do need to be a bit more tactical, as Mercedes were when they had Lewis and Nico. The point I'm making is that GR is going to have to rise to Lewis's level of race craft even it does turn out that GR more often qualifies ahead.
Mercedes don't have a number one driver, at least not until they're obviously in the hunt for a title - which is fair enough. But logically, whoever they calculate has the best chance of scoring the highest result at any GP, should for that GP be prioritised.
If they are line astern and the driver behind is clearly faster, then swap them over to let the faster driver chase the next car in front - with the proviso that, if he doesn’t pass the car in front, they’ll revert the positions at the end of the race.
This is especially important when they’re on different tyres, as was the case in Saudi. They should have let Lewis through to chase Alonso - but obviously these things need discussing in advance, and everyone on board. They’ve lost James Vowels this season, so it might take a few races to adjust in that department.
TheDeuce said:
I think the same. Or at least, it's what I would bet on if I had too. Lewis's racecraft is indeed very hard to equal - and his consistent cool headed nature, which in fairness George has to an above average level too, but yet to be seen if he can take some truly unfair treatment and then knuckle down and get on with the job with quite the same level of composure that Lewis does.
We'll see which way this is trending by mid season of course. But for right now, Lewis is probably in a better place than George given that Lewis took a podium finish and George had his race ruined and then ended with a DNF. The points difference alone is going to put some pressure on, Lewis is over double George's points. It's early days and that is easily recoverable of course, but psychologically it won't feel that way from George's perspective.
I'd say that Sakhir 2020 is a bloody good indicator of how he can cope with multiple setbacks out of the blue.We'll see which way this is trending by mid season of course. But for right now, Lewis is probably in a better place than George given that Lewis took a podium finish and George had his race ruined and then ended with a DNF. The points difference alone is going to put some pressure on, Lewis is over double George's points. It's early days and that is easily recoverable of course, but psychologically it won't feel that way from George's perspective.
maz8062 said:
I see it slightly differently in the context of inter-team rivalry at a team like Merc. Track position is key, with the car ahead getting the favourable calls and the “hold position” calls are never far off during the races. GR is good at qualifying in 23 - better than LH so far, marginally though, but it gives him track position.
I’ve also noted that GR is vocal, using phrases like “my team mate” when referring to LH, or “has he got a problem” - which in my view shows that there’s no hierarchy or respect within the team. It’s out and out racing and that’s how some like it.
In the context of LH signing a 2 year contract extension to be paired with GR, I’m not sure that would be the right move for the twilight years of LH’s career. F1 drivers, the greats of this sport, should always retire on top. They have the money, the trophies and the hall of fame badge, best to call it quits at the top or the sport will only remember you by your last race/s - ask JV, SV, JB, KR and to a lesser extent, MS. NR knew that and made the right call when the time came.
But fair's fair - after the last race,I’ve also noted that GR is vocal, using phrases like “my team mate” when referring to LH, or “has he got a problem” - which in my view shows that there’s no hierarchy or respect within the team. It’s out and out racing and that’s how some like it.
In the context of LH signing a 2 year contract extension to be paired with GR, I’m not sure that would be the right move for the twilight years of LH’s career. F1 drivers, the greats of this sport, should always retire on top. They have the money, the trophies and the hall of fame badge, best to call it quits at the top or the sport will only remember you by your last race/s - ask JV, SV, JB, KR and to a lesser extent, MS. NR knew that and made the right call when the time came.
Lewis Hamilton said:
There was like a 50-50 [setup] choice. I chose one way and he chose another.
“More often than not, the way he went is the wrong one. But it just happened to work.
"So I could only match his pace than be quicker this weekend. But I’ll work hard to make sure we are in a better place next time.”
It very definitely cuts both ways there. “More often than not, the way he went is the wrong one. But it just happened to work.
"So I could only match his pace than be quicker this weekend. But I’ll work hard to make sure we are in a better place next time.”
Ahonen said:
The CoG will move by only the tiniest of amounts through the race because the fuel tank is positioned at the CoG. The height will change a little but of course these days the fuel volume is much smaller than it used to be in the V8 days, plus the cars are much heavier, so the impact is reduced. The current mandated weight distribution is much more rearward than the teams would like - in the mid 2000s (up to 2008) they would regularly run at around 49.5% or more forwards, then after '09 until '13 (I think) the maximum allowed was 47.5% and so every single car ran at 47.5%.
The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
Are you able to say why Lewis feels the way he does about his location in the tub?The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
From what you are saying its almost impossible for him to feel that something is radically different about this year’s car. He does not strike me as someone who would vocalise his concerns unless they were great.
rdjohn said:
Ahonen said:
The CoG will move by only the tiniest of amounts through the race because the fuel tank is positioned at the CoG. The height will change a little but of course these days the fuel volume is much smaller than it used to be in the V8 days, plus the cars are much heavier, so the impact is reduced. The current mandated weight distribution is much more rearward than the teams would like - in the mid 2000s (up to 2008) they would regularly run at around 49.5% or more forwards, then after '09 until '13 (I think) the maximum allowed was 47.5% and so every single car ran at 47.5%.
The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
Are you able to say why Lewis feels the way he does about his location in the tub?The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
From what you are saying its almost impossible for him to feel that something is radically different about this year’s car. He does not strike me as someone who would vocalise his concerns unless they were great.
Perhaps it’s about the fact he’s sitting closer to the point of rotation that’s unsettling.
I remember the first time I parked my 4WS Honda Prelude years ago and the rear wheel steer had the effect of moving the pivot point of the car.
It felt more like I was on a turntable than following the front wheels into a parking space
The Merc is hardly a Bedford Rascal in terms of driver position but if he’s feeling a bit more over the wheels it could be that sort of sensation he’s getting?
I remember the first time I parked my 4WS Honda Prelude years ago and the rear wheel steer had the effect of moving the pivot point of the car.
It felt more like I was on a turntable than following the front wheels into a parking space
The Merc is hardly a Bedford Rascal in terms of driver position but if he’s feeling a bit more over the wheels it could be that sort of sensation he’s getting?
Some maths i did earlier in the thread to try to work out the size of the effect discussed above.
Tyre peak grip will be at a slip angle of 5-10 degrees typically. Of course this angle is zero when in a straight line.
So On turn in you want to get tbr rear tyres to the slip angle that gives peak grip. This means initially the rear end will slide. As the slip angle increases the grip will rise until the rate of ‘acceleration of the slide’ slows and the tyre is established at a stable slip angle, ideally close to the peak grip angle.
Sensing that transition from sliding to approaching optimum slip angle is what Hamilton is talking about when he says he can’t feel the rear.
The slip angle is the angle formed between the direction the tyres are point and the direction the car is going.
How much less lateral movement would the driver feel or be accelerated through for each 10cm forwards you move them? (For 8 deg slip)? It’s 1.4cm less. So very noticeable…
GiantCardboardPlato said:
tight fart said:
I read today that Lewis feels he is to far forward over the front axle to feel comfortable, and that’s where the car needs redesigning.
Just did some quick maths, think it’s right.Tyre peak grip will be at a slip angle of 5-10 degrees typically. Of course this angle is zero when in a straight line.
So On turn in you want to get tbr rear tyres to the slip angle that gives peak grip. This means initially the rear end will slide. As the slip angle increases the grip will rise until the rate of ‘acceleration of the slide’ slows and the tyre is established at a stable slip angle, ideally close to the peak grip angle.
Sensing that transition from sliding to approaching optimum slip angle is what Hamilton is talking about when he says he can’t feel the rear.
The slip angle is the angle formed between the direction the tyres are point and the direction the car is going.
How much less lateral movement would the driver feel or be accelerated through for each 10cm forwards you move them? (For 8 deg slip)? It’s 1.4cm less. So very noticeable…
500TORQUES said:
Slip angle doesn't mean the tyre is sliding, it relates to the angle of the wheel relative to the angle of the tread at the contact patch.
Quite right. I think my post was a bit confusing.I was trying to talk about the initial corner entry phase when you transition the car from straight ahead to turning.
As you do this you want to get to the optimum slip angle as quickly as possible. If you increase lateral load at the same rate the slip angle increases and stop just at the optimum you will never start sliding. However, if you increase the lateral load rapidly (like when you turn in) then that may increase more quickly than the slip angle and the car will start sliding.* Go a 'little bit' over and the tyre could recover and get back . go too far and it just slides…
It’s that interplay between slip angle, peak grip, and the derivative of slip angle that the driver is having to sense on turn in. go too far, you slide, you loose time. don't go far enough, you didn't use all the grip and fell inside the edge of the friction circle.
- We’ve probably all experienced this in a road car or a go kart, especially on a wet day. Turn in very quickly and you can induce understeer. Turn in more delicately and you can build the steering angle (lateral load) to the same point without inducing that understeer, as your lateral load 'request' is always under the line in the plot above. (This is mostly about weight transfer increasing in the vertical load on the outside tyre and so raising peak lateral load before a slide is induced, rather than the time taken for the tyre to ‘catch up’ with the lateral load, but still).
maz8062 said:
if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??
They'll be comparing a 38 year-old who has nothing left to prove and was dealt an enormous psychological setback at the end of 2021 with a 25 year-old who has everything to prove. Which would be a bit stupid, really.HardtopManual said:
maz8062 said:
if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??
They'll be comparing a 38 year-old who has nothing left to prove and was dealt an enormous psychological setback at the end of 2021 with a 25 year-old who has everything to prove. Which would be a bit stupid, really.rdjohn said:
Ahonen said:
The CoG will move by only the tiniest of amounts through the race because the fuel tank is positioned at the CoG. The height will change a little but of course these days the fuel volume is much smaller than it used to be in the V8 days, plus the cars are much heavier, so the impact is reduced. The current mandated weight distribution is much more rearward than the teams would like - in the mid 2000s (up to 2008) they would regularly run at around 49.5% or more forwards, then after '09 until '13 (I think) the maximum allowed was 47.5% and so every single car ran at 47.5%.
The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
Are you able to say why Lewis feels the way he does about his location in the tub?The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.
A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.
From what you are saying its almost impossible for him to feel that something is radically different about this year’s car. He does not strike me as someone who would vocalise his concerns unless they were great.
HardtopManual said:
They'll be comparing a 38 year-old who has nothing left to prove and was dealt an enormous psychological setback at the end of 2021 with a 25 year-old who has everything to prove. Which would be a bit stupid, really.
Indeed. It is quite incredible to me he came back. I must confess I would not have done so in his shoes. skwdenyer said:
I work on the assumption that anyone who can win consistently in F1 is likely operating at a near-superhuman level of balance and feeling in order to do so. It is then easy for me to imagine he can feel very slight changes. Am I wrong in that?
From the article it sounds like Hamilton is struggling to adapt and needs a great car to win races.Of more concern is the team didn't consult Hamilton on the new car direction. Or if they did, Mercedes didn't take his input seriously enough.
https://f1i.com/news/471121-hamilton-doesnt-like-n...
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