Official 2023 Australian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[Sandpit Steve]

Bo_apex said:

realjv said:

And that's why the EU forced the FIA to separate the governance of the sport from the commercial management of the sport. Hence the bargain basement sale of commercial rights to BCE and there eventual purchase by Liberty.

Liberty have an input but it's the FIA who write the rules and it's the FIA who manage and enforce them.

Amercians love stop-start sports, look at their football. Helps viewers who suffer from short attention spans.

12 mini segments to each future Grand Prix ?

All about the ad breaks in US sport. Super Bowl ads go for $5m for 30 seconds!

[ajprice]

Siao said:

paulw123 said:

Certainly happened many times before but was this the most amount of Championships on a podium? 11 in total

Spain 1993 disagrees

6 at the time of the race. Prost 3, Senna 3, Schumacher 0.

Schumacher's 1 podium with Mercedes was with Alonso and Raikkonen in the 2012 European GP. That was 10 WDCs.

[Siao]

ajprice said:

Siao said:

paulw123 said:

Certainly happened many times before but was this the most amount of Championships on a podium? 11 in total

Spain 1993 disagrees

6 at the time of the race. Prost 3, Senna 3, Schumacher 0.

Schumacher's 1 podium with Mercedes was with Alonso and Raikkonen in the 2012 European GP. That was 10 WDCs.

Someone mentioned 2018 with Hamilton and Vettel having 11, but Lewis only had 5 at the time. So I thought it was in general, not at the time

[Siao]

I may have misread that though!

[mat205125]

Siao said:

ajprice said:

Siao said:

paulw123 said:

Certainly happened many times before but was this the most amount of Championships on a podium? 11 in total

Spain 1993 disagrees

6 at the time of the race. Prost 3, Senna 3, Schumacher 0.

Schumacher's 1 podium with Mercedes was with Alonso and Raikkonen in the 2012 European GP. That was 10 WDCs.

Someone mentioned 2018 with Hamilton and Vettel having 11, but Lewis only had 5 at the time. So I thought it was in general, not at the time

I think it's logical to compare the number of championships in context, at the time that the podium takes place.

Happy to be corrected, but I don't think that there was any podiums shared by Michael and Lewis in their brief overlap, was there?

[GiantCardboardPlato]

Bo_apex said:

Amercians love stop-start sports, look at their football. Helps viewers who suffer from short attention spans.

12 mini segments to each future Grand Prix ?

yeah, with each team having 20 drivers with high fuel, low fuel, wet weather, standing start, hard tyre, soft tyre, worn tyre specialisms, overtaking, defending specialisms who they switch in and out.

[Sandpit Steve]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Bo_apex said:

Amercians love stop-start sports, look at their football. Helps viewers who suffer from short attention spans.

12 mini segments to each future Grand Prix ?

yeah, with each team having 20 drivers with high fuel, low fuel, wet weather, standing start, hard tyre, soft tyre, worn tyre specialisms, overtaking, defending specialisms who they switch in and out.

Thank about just how many ad breaks can fit into that schedule. Awesome! </sarcasm>

[NRS]

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

TheDeuce said:

Sandpit Steve said:

TheDeuce said:

This is my thinking too, they're getting very common and also have the potential to shake up the order, especially if initially it's yellows and a SC and then after a few have pitted they upgrade to red flag. That gives race control the ability determine who wins/loses strategy wise dependant on when they go from SC to red flag.

There's no outright evidence it is being used to purposefully manipulate or 'jazz up' the racing, but it bothers me that it very easily could be used that way, especially now it happens a lot more frequently than in fairly recent history.

The events of yesterday call into question the integrity of the sport. As in a famous incident 16 months ago, the rule book seemed to have a lot of room for ‘interpretation’ in the minds of the race officials.

Spending half an hour discussing the right order to do a parade lap to the flag, allowed for all sorts of potential shenanigans. Everyone may well have been acting on best instructions, but it’s the impression to the rest of the world that counts.

If the FIA don’t want more FIArce, F1arse, and WWF1 memes out there, they need to get a grip.

I've posted this before: poorly defined rules or potentially conflicting rules might make the FIA look a bit daft, but it also allows interpretations that may have the potential to be used to influence the result in a desirable way.

Thereay be some at the FIA and in fact Liberty that are quite happy for a useful degree of ambiguity to remain.

Liberty will be all for as much ambiguity as possible, that’s IMHO a massive part of the problem we now face.

FIA need to make sure there’s as little ambiguity as possible in the rules, even if they say an SC five laps from the end will be a red flag with a rolling restart and no tyre changes.

I think the FIA are as invested in the sport being a good show as Liberty are, and are perhaps very happy themselves to leave in small areas of the rules and governance that does allow a level of influence over how a season or key race takes shape.

Yes, a lot of (some) of the older fans (as in been watching F1 for a lot longer rather than age) have had issues because the wording of the rules was interpreted in one way for a long time, and that was fine as everyone knew what would happen. The issue is now some of those interpretations are thrown out the window and alternative interpretations are used. Which would be fine if it was upfront and agreed on, or consistent, but it feels like the alternative versus historic interpretations get used interchangeably depending on what makes the race/WDC most spicy at the time.

I have no idea on the rules for overtaking these days, as we have seen so many inconsistent penalties as to who's fault it is, for one example.

[Bo_apex]

Sandpit Steve said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Bo_apex said:

Amercians love stop-start sports, look at their football. Helps viewers who suffer from short attention spans.

12 mini segments to each future Grand Prix ?

yeah, with each team having 20 drivers with high fuel, low fuel, wet weather, standing start, hard tyre, soft tyre, worn tyre specialisms, overtaking, defending specialisms who they switch in and out.

Thank about just how many ad breaks can fit into that schedule. Awesome! </sarcasm>

Liberty Media will make it happen.

[Siao]

mat205125 said:

Siao said:

ajprice said:

Siao said:

paulw123 said:

Certainly happened many times before but was this the most amount of Championships on a podium? 11 in total

Spain 1993 disagrees

6 at the time of the race. Prost 3, Senna 3, Schumacher 0.

Schumacher's 1 podium with Mercedes was with Alonso and Raikkonen in the 2012 European GP. That was 10 WDCs.

Someone mentioned 2018 with Hamilton and Vettel having 11, but Lewis only had 5 at the time. So I thought it was in general, not at the time

I think it's logical to compare the number of championships in context, at the time that the podium takes place.

Happy to be corrected, but I don't think that there was any podiums shared by Michael and Lewis in their brief overlap, was there?

Fair!

No, 2012 was Schumi, Kimi and Nando, not Lewis.

[audi321]

What are we saying then? Yesterday was the most WDCs held at the time of the podium?

[Deesee]

RobGT81 said:

Deesee said:

Red Flags are rare..

Are they?

From the beginning of 2000 F1 season to the end of 2019 season, there was 19 red flags. Since the beginning the 2020, there has already been 17 red flags.

They are effecting too many races now

Get your point .. 2x in Aus 2023 were a multi car incident on a re start, the Mag/Albon, not a red flag imo..

Majority are 4/5 + car pile ups or damaged barriers ( some in the rain). You want 4x tele handlers moving on a live track?

Other notable Red Flags..

Silverstone 22, or Max Vs Lewis Silverstone 21..

[Deesee]

TikTak said:

TheDeuce said:

audi321 said:

RobGT81 said:

Deesee said:

Red Flags are rare..

Are they?

From the beginning of 2000 F1 season to the end of 2019 season, there was 19 red flags. Since the beginning the 2020, there has already been 17 red flags.

They are effecting too many races now

100% agree. The best post on this thread to date.

This is my thinking too, they're getting very common and also have the potential to shake up the order, especially if initially it's yellows and a SC and then after a few have pitted they upgrade to red flag. That gives race control the ability determine who wins/loses strategy wise dependant on when they go from SC to red flag.

There's no outright evidence it is being used to purposefully manipulate or 'jazz up' the racing, but it bothers me that it very easily could be used that way, especially now it happens a lot more frequently than in fairly recent history.

I think this is a really good point. Triggering potential strategies because of launching a SC then changing it is more harmful to teams than the outright number of red flags. I'd also agree on the point of not restarting and just calling the result if it's red flagged a couple laps from the end. More often than not that's going to cause what it did here with teams like Alpine losing out massively.

I get and agree about whether we needed that many flags, especially the second one, but being more cautious for the safety of drivers and marshals is nothing to be sneered at.

Have already replied to one above, that will teach me for doing a bit of work and ignoring PH, let alone reading the whole thread before I reply.

George lost out.. team went for the undercut, even though they started on mediums and had a 100% chance of SC and a 20% chance of Red Flag. When you drive a decent car at the front end, it happens & its visible, things happen in F1, do you remember he caused one before crashing with Bottas in Imola... Lewis lost out on SC/red Flags a few times, even had a pit lane close after he was committed.

Multi car crashes with tele handlers trundling around are not going to happen under double waived yellows or VSC/SC. Red Flag is the only option.

The Albon Kittie Litter could have been better dealt with a VSC (60% pace) IMO, the Kmag crash, full SC until recovered (which would have been full race distance so no 3rd red flag, and subsequent re start).

[TheDeuce]

NRS said:

Yes, a lot of (some) of the older fans (as in been watching F1 for a lot longer rather than age) have had issues because the wording of the rules was interpreted in one way for a long time, and that was fine as everyone knew what would happen. The issue is now some of those interpretations are thrown out the window and alternative interpretations are used. Which would be fine if it was upfront and agreed on, or consistent, but it feels like the alternative versus historic interpretations get used interchangeably depending on what makes the race/WDC most spicy at the time.

I have no idea on the rules for overtaking these days, as we have seen so many inconsistent penalties as to who's fault it is, for one example.

That's basically what I get the impression is happening. Leave things a little vague and then the rules can be applied in the most entertaining way - which I can understand being desirable for those that are heavily invested in the sport (The owners and the regulators..) but it's really not great in terms of fairness and sporting integrity. It should never be the case that, for example, a driver starting to build a points lead gets pinned back somehow for a couple of races for the sake of keeping the championship battle alive - yet that is what 2021 felt like on several occasions - and of course they did end up in AD neck and neck!!

It's also a risky line to cross too often as it starts to erode what the sport is. they might be able to attract millions of new fans each time there is an extra bit of headline raising drama injected 'however', but do it too often or become too obvious/predictable and they risk alienating the core of long established fans.

It's natural for the Americans to lean towards showmanship of course and various other sports series they own get away with it endlessly and remain popular - in America. But they don't tend to travel beyond America well, if at all.

[MustangGT]

Sandpit Steve said:

I think they werent’ expecting to be 1–2 with Max behind, but if Russell was on the Banzai he was upset that Lewis was slowing him down by attacking. Not that Lewis had much choice, with Max also right behind.

Yes, my take on that was the Lewis was doing his best to ensure Max did not get close to George. When Lewis closed in he then backed off where Max could not overtake to build the gap to George from 0.2 to 0.7-0.8 seconds.

[PhilAsia]

MustangGT said:

Sandpit Steve said:

I think they werent’ expecting to be 1–2 with Max behind, but if Russell was on the Banzai he was upset that Lewis was slowing him down by attacking. Not that Lewis had much choice, with Max also right behind.

Yes, my take on that was the Lewis was doing his best to ensure Max did not get close to George. When Lewis closed in he then backed off where Max could not overtake to build the gap to George from 0.2 to 0.7-0.8 seconds.

My take too. Where he was in DRS he positioned to make it most difficult for Max to pass, not for himself to overtake. Maybe the Russell message was to ensure Lewis was told to maintain position, not that either would not take advantage of a mistake.

[entropy]

Sandpit Steve said:

Spending half an hour discussing the right order to do a parade lap to the flag, allowed for all sorts of potential shenanigans. Everyone may well have been acting on best instructions, but it’s the impression to the rest of the world that counts.

Probably best to make sure it's done right than have a team(s) protest and making the officials look stupid.

Sandpit Steve said:

Liberty will be all for as much ambiguity as possible, that’s IMHO a massive part of the problem we now face.

FIA need to make sure there’s as little ambiguity as possible in the rules, even if they say an SC five laps from the end will be a red flag with a rolling restart and no tyre changes.

Race director has some discretionary powers such as the pit exit line in Monaco last year and Masi trying to appease drivers with the "last advantage" when going over track limits.

With the restarts the RD can choose whether it should it standing or SC restart. I think standing starts should be allowed but within 60% of the race distance.

PhilAsia said:

Yes funny years ago before regrid starts we were all for them. But now it does seem to breed too much action risk vs a safety car restart.

I don't remember there was a clamouring for it. I was cynical at first. Way better than the old days of aggregate times.

[rscott]

Deesee said:

TikTak said:

TheDeuce said:

audi321 said:

RobGT81 said:

Deesee said:

Red Flags are rare..

Are they?

From the beginning of 2000 F1 season to the end of 2019 season, there was 19 red flags. Since the beginning the 2020, there has already been 17 red flags.

They are effecting too many races now

100% agree. The best post on this thread to date.

This is my thinking too, they're getting very common and also have the potential to shake up the order, especially if initially it's yellows and a SC and then after a few have pitted they upgrade to red flag. That gives race control the ability determine who wins/loses strategy wise dependant on when they go from SC to red flag.

There's no outright evidence it is being used to purposefully manipulate or 'jazz up' the racing, but it bothers me that it very easily could be used that way, especially now it happens a lot more frequently than in fairly recent history.

I think this is a really good point. Triggering potential strategies because of launching a SC then changing it is more harmful to teams than the outright number of red flags. I'd also agree on the point of not restarting and just calling the result if it's red flagged a couple laps from the end. More often than not that's going to cause what it did here with teams like Alpine losing out massively.

I get and agree about whether we needed that many flags, especially the second one, but being more cautious for the safety of drivers and marshals is nothing to be sneered at.

Have already replied to one above, that will teach me for doing a bit of work and ignoring PH, let alone reading the whole thread before I reply.

George lost out.. team went for the undercut, even though they started on mediums and had a 100% chance of SC and a 20% chance of Red Flag. When you drive a decent car at the front end, it happens & its visible, things happen in F1, do you remember he caused one before crashing with Bottas in Imola... Lewis lost out on SC/red Flags a few times, even had a pit lane close after he was committed.

Multi car crashes with tele handlers trundling around are not going to happen under double waived yellows or VSC/SC. Red Flag is the only option.

The Albon Kittie Litter could have been better dealt with a VSC (60% pace) IMO, the Kmag crash, full SC until recovered (which would have been full race distance so no 3rd red flag, and subsequent re start).

Saw reports that Albon damaged the tecpro barrier, so race had to be stopped for that to be fixed.

[HustleRussell]

PhilAsia said:

MustangGT said:

Sandpit Steve said:

I think they werent’ expecting to be 1–2 with Max behind, but if Russell was on the Banzai he was upset that Lewis was slowing him down by attacking. Not that Lewis had much choice, with Max also right behind.

Yes, my take on that was the Lewis was doing his best to ensure Max did not get close to George. When Lewis closed in he then backed off where Max could not overtake to build the gap to George from 0.2 to 0.7-0.8 seconds.

My take too. Where he was in DRS he positioned to make it most difficult for Max to pass, not for himself to overtake. Maybe the Russell message was to ensure Lewis was told to maintain position, not that either would not take advantage of a mistake.

George was in a pressure cooker between Max who was pressurising and Lewis who was managing the tyres and the car ready to defend from Max himself. In my opinion Hamilton definitely could've gone faster at that time but he also knew that he had George as a buffer. A bit selfish of Lewis to put George in that position perhaps, but very consistent with his usual extreme long game approach. How many times have we seen George complaining about Lewis holding him up early in the stint and then falling back as his tyres go out of their window. Also maybe Lewis was thinking that a Merc DRS and slipstream train would be more difficult for Max to overtake. Anyway I assume the team told Hamilton to get a move on, and he did IIRC open a bit of a gap.

Edited by HustleRussell on Monday 3rd April 17:39

[moffspeed]

Cars the size of a Range Rover and nearly a third of the circuits on the F1 calendar this year being street/temporary ( Las Vegas - do we really need it after already adding anonymous Miami ? ) Opportunities to recover crashed/failed cars without interrupting a race are minimal.

After spending the last few weeks looking at concrete walls and countless red/yellow flags I yearn for the sight of a proper F1 circuit so I guess that will be Rd6, Imola in May. Fast,open circuits are what we need, Silverstone is just over 3 months away….