Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
AceRockatansky said:
Blib said:
Muzzer79 said:
Is it any more of a coincidence compared to last year when McLaren went from a Q1 exit and 19th on the grid in Saudi Arabia to 7th on the grid in Baku two races later and 2nd on the grid at the British GP in the same year?
Maybe, a difference is that Mclaren threw a load of upgrades at the car and it improved, while in contrast, RB's upgrades have been far fewer but the car's lost a minute?To all intents and purposes, the same car has lost an enormous amount of time.
Mr Pointy said:
I made that point a few days ago I was told it was rubbish. Apparantly some RB fanatics think it's perfectly beliveable that RB would risk losing the WDC & WCC just because they are determined to keep an upgrade package that isn't working.
You can see the car handles totally differently now to earlier in the season. MV used to smash every kerb at every corner, now he avoids them like the proverbial plague. That’s not just a poor upgrade, or failing to keep pace in development, it’s a serious regression in car performance - so there has to be a reason why they haven’t gone back to early-season-spec cars, given the danger of now losing both championships.
JcakR said:
jm doc said:
Yes, quite right, case closed. Unless you believe that some boffin had been sitting back at FIA headquarters and suddenly thought, I wonder what would happen if a team suddenly came up with a way of differential brake forces across an axle? And then the FIA hastily brought out a rule clarification banning it, just in case some devious team came up with the idea and implemented it.
Strangely enough, at around this time, RB suddenly started losing races after total dominance for 2-3 years.
You are welcome to believe that's all circumstantial of course. Others might suggest it's delusional though.....
Are you unable to read?Strangely enough, at around this time, RB suddenly started losing races after total dominance for 2-3 years.
You are welcome to believe that's all circumstantial of course. Others might suggest it's delusional though.....
The rules for 2026 were being written and they decided to clarify that particular rule.
Seriously it’s like you Mercedes/Hamilton fan boys will tell yourself anything to create more Redbull conspiracies.
Frothing at the mouth there aren’t you. And only your second post with this user name. What’s happened to your previous user name? Had to change due to embarrassment? Everyone ignoring you? Been banned? Such a shame
Sandpit Steve said:
That’s not just a poor upgrade, or failing to keep pace in development, it’s a serious regression in car performance - so there has to be a reason why they haven’t gone back to early-season-spec cars, given the danger of now losing both championships.
I thought Max had reverted to the prior floor for Monza?Sandpit Steve said:
That’s not just a poor upgrade, or failing to keep pace in development, it’s a serious regression in car performance - so there has to be a reason why they haven’t gone back to early-season-spec cars, given the danger of now losing both championships.
It's a serious regression in car performance in relative terms to the rest of the field (well mainly to Merc and Mclaren anyway). it's not obviously a much slower car than earlier in absolute terms but one that's a lot more difficult to get into it's operating window. Perhaps the feeling is that reverting back in full back to the early season spec car would be giving up too much performance and they would still get a faster laptime out of struggling more with the current (in theory) faster car.Monza 2023: Max was 2nd on the grid with a 1:20.307, behind Sainz on 1:20.294
Monza 2024: Max was 7th on the grid with a 1:20.022;
Norris on pole posted 1:19.327
Max’s fastest time was in Q2, a 1:19.662, which would still have been only 7th in Q3.
So, in simple terms, all the major teams were up to a second a lap faster year on year, except Max, whose car was (at the start of the season) markedly faster than last year’s.
Now I realise times from one year to the next aren’t hugely comparable due to weather, track conditions, etc. But the picture seems stark.
Compare back to Bahrain. Max 2023 made pole with a 1:29.708; Max 2024 made pole with a 1:29.179. That difference - 5 tenths - was about what we saw in the races, too.
On the face of it, using this simplistic analysis, RBR’s car does seem as if it may be slower now than at the start of the year.
Monza 2024: Max was 7th on the grid with a 1:20.022;
Norris on pole posted 1:19.327
Max’s fastest time was in Q2, a 1:19.662, which would still have been only 7th in Q3.
So, in simple terms, all the major teams were up to a second a lap faster year on year, except Max, whose car was (at the start of the season) markedly faster than last year’s.
Now I realise times from one year to the next aren’t hugely comparable due to weather, track conditions, etc. But the picture seems stark.
Compare back to Bahrain. Max 2023 made pole with a 1:29.708; Max 2024 made pole with a 1:29.179. That difference - 5 tenths - was about what we saw in the races, too.
On the face of it, using this simplistic analysis, RBR’s car does seem as if it may be slower now than at the start of the year.
isaldiri said:
Well it certainly is simplistic analysis yes.........
But it still paints a valid picture. Whereas, posters insisting that RBR have not lost comparative performance are somewhat blinkered. RBR has gone backwards compared to the other teams, coincidently that followed an FIA directive. I do not believe in coincidence like this, one race, maybe two? Sure, but not every race since.It's not just the lap time comparison, the car is handling completely differently.
It's gone from a perfectly balanced chassis which could be placed at will on the track, to an average at best handful.
Remember at the season start people were taking the piss out of Mercedes because it looked like the zero pod concept abandoned by them was being implemented successfully by Red Bull with their tiny air intakes and high shoulders.
Something fundamental has changed on that car, something not easy to fix based on the comments coming from Max. He is baffled, or a good actor. The engineers know the reason and based on current form, there will be no official statement about what has been removed from the car to cause this.
All we are left with is a very public rewrite to the regulations in an area that would cause such an effect.
An upgrade that caused this kind of change in behaviour would be abandoned immediately.
It's gone from a perfectly balanced chassis which could be placed at will on the track, to an average at best handful.
Remember at the season start people were taking the piss out of Mercedes because it looked like the zero pod concept abandoned by them was being implemented successfully by Red Bull with their tiny air intakes and high shoulders.
Something fundamental has changed on that car, something not easy to fix based on the comments coming from Max. He is baffled, or a good actor. The engineers know the reason and based on current form, there will be no official statement about what has been removed from the car to cause this.
All we are left with is a very public rewrite to the regulations in an area that would cause such an effect.
An upgrade that caused this kind of change in behaviour would be abandoned immediately.
hondajack85 said:
Could be that Newey owned a specific bit of IP and has taken it with him.
No way. a) IP created in the workplace is normally the property of the company
b) you would be crazy as a company to licence IP from a contractor
c) he is still with the company until Q1 25, so how could he take it away?
Interesting rumour circulating, apparently they may have been running three chamber rear dampers that delayed the return of the car to it’s original ride height using nitrogen, in a manner designed to replicate the trick hydraulic suspension everyone had before 2022.
https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
ETA: For some phone typing...
https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
ETA: For some phone typing...
Edited by Megaflow on Tuesday 17th September 12:21
Megaflow said:
Interesting rumour circulating, apparently they may have been running three chamber rear dampers that delayed the return of the car to it’s original ride height using nitrogen, in a manner design to replicate the truck hydraulic suspension everyone had before 2022.
https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
Interesting..... there's seemingly a quote attributed to Stefano Domenicali along the lines of "Red Bull domination not being allowed to continue". So we know where that came from? I'd not heard anything like that before. https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
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