The Alpine implosion

[richhead]

DeejRC said:

StevieBee said:

pquinn said:

Sandpit Steve said:

The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company.

One of the big hurdles is that most people just don't want to touch the whole business; short contract horizons where the whole thing can evaporate as marketing budgets shift, and the really big hurdle; if you're in a role that requires 5 days plus every race weekend then it becomes stupidly demanding and too many hours whatever the money.

One of my siblings was headhunted for a role recently at a team (a good team too, and a good very high level job) and after getting past the 'that'd be cool' stage it just wasn't tempting. Great job, good money, high profile, but made no sense to do it as you really had to live in the job in a way that isn't required for anything equivalent and it just wasn't rational to take on.

I would imagine that the risk is quite hight too in that you suddenly become a bit 'famous' for doing something that would barely attract more than a dozen likes in LinkedIn in any other scenario. Get it right and the exposure is handy but get wrong, the exposure will be greater and not so good.


It think it was Steve Machet (author of the Mechanics Tale) who described why corporates seldom thrive in F1. He described a situation at Stewart GP back in the 90s where they might find they're out of a grommet or screw or some other important but standard component, Someone would grab readies from petty cash and head off the nearest B&Q and then crack on. When Ford took over, such practices was stopped with everything needing purchase orders and sourcing through accredited Tier 1 suppliers, very few of whom were able to provide some of the more elaborate provisions needed. They lost around 8-months whilst suppliers the team had been using for years had to go through the process of getting on the Tier 1roster for Ford.

I rarely comment on work stuff, but a long time ago (10yrs or so) I was approached to take over the Quality Manager role at Merc F1. You will forgive my memory, but as I recall basic salary was about £80k + bonuses. I can’t remember the bonus structure but I remember it was significant. I didn’t live too far at the time and I discussed it with my wife. I was living/working in Europe at the time, coming home every cpl of weeks for the weekend, so was already used to a long time away from home. This change though would have meant losing the weekends, because race obvs, plus the v long hours during season. Merc at the time had had significant quality problems the season before. It was also a pay cut from the money I was on in Switzerland.
In the end I turned it down, for similar reasons to the poster with the sibling and the above. The money would be ok/good with the bonuses, but the working life balance would be very “unbalanced”. I was also aware that significant attention would come my way should things be less than optimal. The F1 world can be a very manic place.
It’s a mentality you need to fully buy into because you know the lunacy that comes with it and the pressures on your life.

So I stuck to stuff in the sky instead

Very much this, i worked in racing, at a fairly high level, great money and job, loved it, But you have to live it , its not just a job.
It did however cost me 3 marriages. Im now retired in early 50,s . Still love racing, but wouldnt do it again, focused on other parts of my life now.

[vaud]

TheDeuce said:

MustangGT said:

rallycross said:

French employment law would make moving very very expensive for any new owner

Alpine is based in the UK, not France

That's also a very good point!

Although booting people here is not particularly cheap. Either way it makes no difference, id Andretti really want to buy into F1 it'll cost them a large fortune however they do it. They have the money and if a potential purchase of Alpine is possible, they won't be put off because of one off costs such as paying off the workforce and/or establishing a new factory in the States.

It relatively cheap if you stick to statutory redundancy and consultation. Okay, more expensive that the US with "at will" employment but way cheaper than France/Germany etc with workers council's, etc

[TheDeuce]

vaud said:

TheDeuce said:

MustangGT said:

rallycross said:

French employment law would make moving very very expensive for any new owner

Alpine is based in the UK, not France

That's also a very good point!

Although booting people here is not particularly cheap. Either way it makes no difference, id Andretti really want to buy into F1 it'll cost them a large fortune however they do it. They have the money and if a potential purchase of Alpine is possible, they won't be put off because of one off costs such as paying off the workforce and/or establishing a new factory in the States.

It relatively cheap if you stick to statutory redundancy and consultation. Okay, more expensive that the US with "at will" employment but way cheaper than France/Germany etc with workers council's, etc

I'm not at all an expert on the cost relative costs of booting a load of people out of a company - I'll take your word for it that it's more expensive on the continent.

I still reckon its a none factor whatever the cost. If Andretti want in they'll pay whatever price - They'll easily attract enough sponsor revenue to exceed the cost caps and go on to make a profit most likely, in addition to whatever they do to monetise all the exposure for other brands they own.

F1 is a free picnic forevermore, if you can afford the entry price tag. Hence the entry price tag is becoming stupidly high, yet still, well worth it.

Before I'm mis-quoted... I'm not claiming any knowledge that Andretti specifically is about to buy Enstone - for all I know they really do want a US factory and will hold out for that, although that idea seems mad to me. But I do believe the scaling down of ambition and talent at Alpine, combined with their lack of reason to actually have an F1 team anymore, strongly suggests they are up for sale - Andretti is simply the most likely buyer that we're aware is looking for a way in.

[PhilAsia]

I keep seeing "none" this and "none" that. Is it a predictive text issue? I have seen very intelligent others, such as Torques and Deuce with "none" instead of "non"... Have I missed something, or is it a non-issue?

[PhilAsia]

richhead said:

DeejRC said:

StevieBee said:

pquinn said:

Sandpit Steve said:

The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company.

One of the big hurdles is that most people just don't want to touch the whole business; short contract horizons where the whole thing can evaporate as marketing budgets shift, and the really big hurdle; if you're in a role that requires 5 days plus every race weekend then it becomes stupidly demanding and too many hours whatever the money.

One of my siblings was headhunted for a role recently at a team (a good team too, and a good very high level job) and after getting past the 'that'd be cool' stage it just wasn't tempting. Great job, good money, high profile, but made no sense to do it as you really had to live in the job in a way that isn't required for anything equivalent and it just wasn't rational to take on.

I would imagine that the risk is quite hight too in that you suddenly become a bit 'famous' for doing something that would barely attract more than a dozen likes in LinkedIn in any other scenario. Get it right and the exposure is handy but get wrong, the exposure will be greater and not so good.


It think it was Steve Machet (author of the Mechanics Tale) who described why corporates seldom thrive in F1. He described a situation at Stewart GP back in the 90s where they might find they're out of a grommet or screw or some other important but standard component, Someone would grab readies from petty cash and head off the nearest B&Q and then crack on. When Ford took over, such practices was stopped with everything needing purchase orders and sourcing through accredited Tier 1 suppliers, very few of whom were able to provide some of the more elaborate provisions needed. They lost around 8-months whilst suppliers the team had been using for years had to go through the process of getting on the Tier 1roster for Ford.

I rarely comment on work stuff, but a long time ago (10yrs or so) I was approached to take over the Quality Manager role at Merc F1. You will forgive my memory, but as I recall basic salary was about £80k + bonuses. I can’t remember the bonus structure but I remember it was significant. I didn’t live too far at the time and I discussed it with my wife. I was living/working in Europe at the time, coming home every cpl of weeks for the weekend, so was already used to a long time away from home. This change though would have meant losing the weekends, because race obvs, plus the v long hours during season. Merc at the time had had significant quality problems the season before. It was also a pay cut from the money I was on in Switzerland.
In the end I turned it down, for similar reasons to the poster with the sibling and the above. The money would be ok/good with the bonuses, but the working life balance would be very “unbalanced”. I was also aware that significant attention would come my way should things be less than optimal. The F1 world can be a very manic place.
It’s a mentality you need to fully buy into because you know the lunacy that comes with it and the pressures on your life.

So I stuck to stuff in the sky instead

Very much this, i worked in racing, at a fairly high level, great money and job, loved it, But you have to live it , its not just a job.
It did however cost me 3 marriages. Im now retired in early 50,s . Still love racing, but wouldnt do it again, focused on other parts of my life now.

If you are honest, I think you would agree that it did not cost you three marriages, as hard as that was. Either they, or you, were not invested in the relationship as you or they were............ Or, the eye was taken off the ball and a lack of thought was the cause.

I did the latter in a long-term relationship, but ultimately led to a wonderful conclusion, which I trust you also have.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy/patronising.

[Vsix and Vtec]

richhead said:

Very much this, i worked in racing, at a fairly high level, great money and job, loved it, But you have to live it , its not just a job.
It did however cost me 3 marriages. Im now retired in early 50,s . Still love racing, but wouldnt do it again, focused on other parts of my life now.

I listen to a podcast every now and then, and there's this chap called Richard West who has a regular segment on it. The things he talks about and the insight he's imparted are very much in line with yours. If you're in the upper echelons of motorsport (Mr West is ex TWR as well as Williams) he made it plain that you have to be very good and be always seeking the next advantage to stay in it, or you get left behind. I think he was greeted once with the words "welcome to the piranha tank" at the beginning of his career.

Utterly fascinating world, but it certainly doesn't seem to be very forgiving of anything or anyone giving less than 100% all the time.

[PhilAsia]

Vsix and Vtec said:

richhead said:

Very much this, i worked in racing, at a fairly high level, great money and job, loved it, But you have to live it , its not just a job.
It did however cost me 3 marriages. Im now retired in early 50,s . Still love racing, but wouldnt do it again, focused on other parts of my life now.

I listen to a podcast every now and then, and there's this chap called Richard West who has a regular segment on it. The things he talks about and the insight he's imparted are very much in line with yours. If you're in the upper echelons of motorsport (Mr West is ex TWR as well as Williams) he made it plain that you have to be very good and be always seeking the next advantage to stay in it, or you get left behind. I think he was greeted once with the words "welcome to the piranha tank" at the beginning of his career.

Utterly fascinating world, but it certainly doesn't seem to be very forgiving of anything or anyone giving less than 100% all the time.

Or anyone giving 100% all the time. As in my case above.

[F1GTRUeno]

Vsix and Vtec said:

I listen to a podcast every now and then, and there's this chap called Richard West who has a regular segment on it. The things he talks about and the insight he's imparted are very much in line with yours. If you're in the upper echelons of motorsport (Mr West is ex TWR as well as Williams) he made it plain that you have to be very good and be always seeking the next advantage to stay in it, or you get left behind. I think he was greeted once with the words "welcome to the piranha tank" at the beginning of his career.

Utterly fascinating world, but it certainly doesn't seem to be very forgiving of anything or anyone giving less than 100% all the time.

What's the podcast?

[TheDeuce]

PhilAsia said:

I keep seeing "none" this and "none" that. Is it a predictive text issue? I have seen very intelligent others, such as Torques and Deuce with "none" instead of "non"... Have I missed something, or is it a non-issue?

I'm doing it on purpose - I have to be seen to get things wrong sometimes, otherwise Kart and friends will think they're really weird for getting things wrong constantly.












(I'll try harder on non, issue...)

[richhead]

PhilAsia said:

If you are honest, I think you would agree that it did not cost you three marriages, as hard as that was. Either they, or you, were not invested in the relationship as you or they were............ Or, the eye was taken off the ball and a lack of thought was the cause.

I did the latter in a long-term relationship, but ultimately led to a wonderful conclusion, which I trust you also have.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy/patronising.

probably true, and yes now in a fantastic relationship, but being on the road/away most of the year isnt good for relationships, alot of my friends in the industry are the same.

[TheDeuce]

richhead said:

PhilAsia said:

If you are honest, I think you would agree that it did not cost you three marriages, as hard as that was. Either they, or you, were not invested in the relationship as you or they were............ Or, the eye was taken off the ball and a lack of thought was the cause.

I did the latter in a long-term relationship, but ultimately led to a wonderful conclusion, which I trust you also have.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy/patronising.

probably true, and yes now in a fantastic relationship, but being on the road/away most of the year isnt good for relationships, alot of my friends in the industry are the same.

I work in TV, Film and Events - luckily I do a lot of my work from home and the design and build stuff I do in my workshop nearby. I only work overseas a handful of times a year, and perhaps 5-8 relatively short stints away from home in the UK each year. But even then, sometimes I'm away, save the odd night or two at home, for months during busy periods, it's tough! And indeed, the failure rate of relationships for the guys that are away more than they're at home is insanely high.

I think part of the problem is that if you're working away in any industry where there is pressure to deliver something ambitious, consistently and in a tight space of time, you become close to and dependant on those you work with - so you're not just physically distant from home, you're in fact with another 'family' of sorts. It's hard to be present on phone calls home sometimes, when you're wrapped up in another life elsewhere. You can't help but be wrapped up in that other life when the pressure is on and you're putting in 12-16 days, then often eating/drinking with some of the same people that night. There's nothing wrong in that from an individual pov... But I do worry Mrs Deuce doesn't always get the best of me when I do get time to call home..

I really am VERY lucky to be able to live that second life enough to enjoy the benefits of working out of passion, not servitude, without it being so full on that it erodes other parts of my life (too much). If it did start to go to far could I give it up...? That's a tough one. I suspect I would in the end, reluctantly and only once things at home had obviously gone very wonky.

In a vein attempt to bring this back to Alpine I can only imagine how quickly I would want to jump ship if the job (team) I was working for stopped feeling like there was any hope of success or even interest in making forward progress. It would become impossible to justify personal sacrifice if my passion wasn't rewarded in some way and I felt my efforts were wasted. We only hear of the significant staff departures at the team of course - but I bet there are people up and down the team leaving or finding excuses for extended periods of leave in order to seek something more rewarding to do elsewhere. That's what happened when Williams was run into the ground in it's final years of family ownership.

[PhilAsia]

TheDeuce said:

PhilAsia said:

I keep seeing "none" this and "none" that. Is it a predictive text issue? I have seen very intelligent others, such as Torques and Deuce with "none" instead of "non"... Have I missed something, or is it a non-issue?

I'm doing it on purpose - I have to be seen to get things wrong sometimes, otherwise Kart and friends will think they're really weird for getting things wrong constantly.

TheDeuce said:

(I'll try harder on non, issue...)

[PhilAsia]

richhead said:

PhilAsia said:

If you are honest, I think you would agree that it did not cost you three marriages, as hard as that was. Either they, or you, were not invested in the relationship as you or they were............ Or, the eye was taken off the ball and a lack of thought was the cause.

I did the latter in a long-term relationship, but ultimately led to a wonderful conclusion, which I trust you also have.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy/patronising.

probably true, and yes now in a fantastic relationship, but being on the road/away most of the year isnt good for relationships, alot of my friends in the industry are the same.

Great to hear, and good for you! I was working 7-11 M-Sat and 10 hours on a Sun, endeavouring to make my mark in the world and selfishly/stupidly did not realise the toll it was taking.

All great now too. Better than ever.

[PhilAsia]

TheDeuce said:

richhead said:

PhilAsia said:

If you are honest, I think you would agree that it did not cost you three marriages, as hard as that was. Either they, or you, were not invested in the relationship as you or they were............ Or, the eye was taken off the ball and a lack of thought was the cause.

I did the latter in a long-term relationship, but ultimately led to a wonderful conclusion, which I trust you also have.

Hope this doesn't sound too preachy/patronising.

probably true, and yes now in a fantastic relationship, but being on the road/away most of the year isnt good for relationships, alot of my friends in the industry are the same.

I work in TV, Film and Events - luckily I do a lot of my work from home and the design and build stuff I do in my workshop nearby. I only work overseas a handful of times a year, and perhaps 5-8 relatively short stints away from home in the UK each year. But even then, sometimes I'm away, save the odd night or two at home, for months during busy periods, it's tough! And indeed, the failure rate of relationships for the guys that are away more than they're at home is insanely high.

I think part of the problem is that if you're working away in any industry where there is pressure to deliver something ambitious, consistently and in a tight space of time, you become close to and dependant on those you work with - so you're not just physically distant from home, you're in fact with another 'family' of sorts. It's hard to be present on phone calls home sometimes, when you're wrapped up in another life elsewhere. You can't help but be wrapped up in that other life when the pressure is on and you're putting in 12-16 days, then often eating/drinking with some of the same people that night. There's nothing wrong in that from an individual pov... But I do worry Mrs Deuce doesn't always get the best of me when I do get time to call home..

I really am VERY lucky to be able to live that second life enough to enjoy the benefits of working out of passion, not servitude, without it being so full on that it erodes other parts of my life (too much). If it did start to go to far could I give it up...? That's a tough one. I suspect I would in the end, reluctantly and only once things at home had obviously gone very wonky.

In a vein attempt to bring this back to Alpine I can only imagine how quickly I would want to jump ship if the job (team) I was working for stopped feeling like there was any hope of success or even interest in making forward progress. It would become impossible to justify personal sacrifice if my passion wasn't rewarded in some way and I felt my efforts were wasted. We only hear of the significant staff departures at the team of course - but I bet there are people up and down the team leaving or finding excuses for extended periods of leave in order to seek something more rewarding to do elsewhere. That's what happened when Williams was run into the ground in it's final years of family ownership.

I think the fact that you are aware is the most important point. I was in my mid-thirties and was not thinking. I was only preparing tthe groundwork for travelling the world in our retirement. Came home one night to learn that for six months she had been wanting to let me know... I went weak at the knees, literally! I could hear in her voice that there was no getting her back.

I sold everything, house, business, cars, bike, with a view to travel Asia for a year (over quarter of a century ago) and got a flat tyre when I saw my now wife.

Also getting back on topic, my first ever holiday outside of the UK was in the ALPINE region of Austria.

[TheDeuce]

PhilAsia said:

I think the fact that you are aware is the most important point. I was in my mid-thirties and was not thinking. I was only preparing tthe groundwork for travelling the world in our retirement. Came home one night to learn that for six months she had been wanting to let me know... I went weak at the knees, literally! I could hear in her voice that there was no getting her back.

I sold everything, house, business, cars, bike, with a view to travel Asia for a year (over quarter of a century ago) and got a flat tyre when I saw my now wife.

Also getting back on topic, my first ever holiday outside of the UK was in the ALPINE region of Austria.

Everything happens for a good reason in the end!















Except AD21

[PhilAsia]

TheDeuce said:

PhilAsia said:

I think the fact that you are aware is the most important point. I was in my mid-thirties and was not thinking. I was only preparing tthe groundwork for travelling the world in our retirement. Came home one night to learn that for six months she had been wanting to let me know... I went weak at the knees, literally! I could hear in her voice that there was no getting her back.

I sold everything, house, business, cars, bike, with a view to travel Asia for a year (over quarter of a century ago) and got a flat tyre when I saw my now wife.

Also getting back on topic, my first ever holiday outside of the UK was in the ALPINE region of Austria.

Everything happens for a good reason in the end!















Except AD21

It's all about
















.......timing

[marine boy]

TheDeuce said:

Everything happens for a good reason in the end!

Except AD21

This was karma in action, making a wrong, a right

[DeejRC]

Well this thread took a weird turn!