F1 has rejected Andretti's entry bid
Discussion
FOM's full statement and reasoning (or at least as much of it as they are sharing) is here
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
It's not exactly convincing.
4. Having had the opportunity to consider the Applicant’s responses together with our own deliberations, we subsequently wrote to the Applicant on 12 December 2023 extending an invitation to an in-person meeting at our offices in order for the Applicant to present its application, but the Applicant did not take us up on this offer.
This is a very interesting statement. Either it is a massive misstep by Andretti or there is a lot more to this story than FOM are presenting.
6. As contemplated by the Process Letter, we took account of the broad range of ways in which value could be provided, including value to fans, the prestige and reputational value of the sport, the competitive balance of the Championship and the sustainability goals of the sport. The key areas of review were
.....
e. consideration of the operational impact on our existing circuits of adding an 11th team
Hmm, operational impact on existing circuits which were selected by whom? Oh yes that would be FOM. More on this further down.
9. Any 11th team should show that its participation and involvement would bring a benefit to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins. This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the Championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters.
That is a completely ridiculous and unreasonable bar to be asked to clear. It's a circular argument. You can't join unless you are going to be competitive and we don't know if you are going to be competitive unless you join. Also happily ignores the reality that there is never any certainty a team will become competitive. McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes all had periods of being uncompetitive in the last 10-20 years and despite their past records it was never a certainty that they would be competing at the front again. Williams, Alpine both past winners and regular championship contenders but they haven't been competitive at the very front as is being asked in a long while. A very unfair argument.
The FIA - as dubious as we all are to their abilities at the moment - deemed Andretti to have the financial resources and potential technical capabilities to be a credible F1 entry. FOM seems to be disagreeing.
11. 2025 will be the last year of the current regulatory cycle and 2026 will be the first year of the subsequent cycle, for which an entirely different car to the previous cycle will be required. The Applicant proposes, as a novice constructor, to design and build a car under the 2025 regulations, and then in the very next year to design and build a completely different car under the 2026 regulations. Further, the Applicant proposes to attempt this with a dependency on a compulsory supply from a rival PU manufacturer that will inevitably be reticent to extend its collaboration with the Applicant beyond the minimum required while the Applicant pursues its ambition of collaborating with GM as a PU supplier in the longer term, which a compulsory PU supplier would see as a risk to its intellectual property and know-how.
Given that the commercial agreement between FOM/Teams/FIA which defines the $200m dilution fee expires after 2025 and that there is no agreement in place for 2026 is it any wonder that Andretti based their bid on joining in 2025? They did it because that's essentially what they were asked to do by FOM. It would have been pretty non-credible for Andretti to make a presentation based on a fictional commercial agreement over which they have no power to influence.
As for the PU argument an intellectual property, total rubbish. By that reasoning no customer team could ever change engine supplier.
13. Coming to the sport as a new PU manufacturer is also a huge challenge, with which major automotive manufacturers have struggled in the past, and one which can take a manufacturer a number of years of significant investment in order to become competitive. GM have the resource and credibility to be more than capable of attempting this challenge, but success is not assured.
Right, so they don't want a new customer team with plans to graduate to a works team and they also don't want a new works team..... So what they want is a new customer team with no plans or ambitions then right?
15. The need for any new team to take a compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship.
Nope, they don't want a customer team either.
16. While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around.
A lovely piece of blowing their own trumpet here by FOM.
17. The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors.
And now we're back to the argument about the suitability of the circuits which FOM selected. It turns out that they are unsuitable to accommodate all of the potential teams allowed under the regulations. Oh and they aren't going to share.
20. We would look differently on an application for the entry of a team into the 2028 Championship with a GM power unit, either as a GM works team or as a GM customer team designing all allowable components in-house. In this case there would be additional factors to consider in respect of the value that the Applicant would bring to the Championship, in particular in respect of bringing a prestigious new OEM to the sport as a PU supplier.
It feels like this last statement exists only in an attempt to look reasonable. Given everything they've said previously about the difficulties for new OEM and rookie teams it rings a little hollow.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
It's not exactly convincing.
4. Having had the opportunity to consider the Applicant’s responses together with our own deliberations, we subsequently wrote to the Applicant on 12 December 2023 extending an invitation to an in-person meeting at our offices in order for the Applicant to present its application, but the Applicant did not take us up on this offer.
This is a very interesting statement. Either it is a massive misstep by Andretti or there is a lot more to this story than FOM are presenting.
6. As contemplated by the Process Letter, we took account of the broad range of ways in which value could be provided, including value to fans, the prestige and reputational value of the sport, the competitive balance of the Championship and the sustainability goals of the sport. The key areas of review were
.....
e. consideration of the operational impact on our existing circuits of adding an 11th team
Hmm, operational impact on existing circuits which were selected by whom? Oh yes that would be FOM. More on this further down.
9. Any 11th team should show that its participation and involvement would bring a benefit to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins. This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the Championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters.
That is a completely ridiculous and unreasonable bar to be asked to clear. It's a circular argument. You can't join unless you are going to be competitive and we don't know if you are going to be competitive unless you join. Also happily ignores the reality that there is never any certainty a team will become competitive. McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes all had periods of being uncompetitive in the last 10-20 years and despite their past records it was never a certainty that they would be competing at the front again. Williams, Alpine both past winners and regular championship contenders but they haven't been competitive at the very front as is being asked in a long while. A very unfair argument.
The FIA - as dubious as we all are to their abilities at the moment - deemed Andretti to have the financial resources and potential technical capabilities to be a credible F1 entry. FOM seems to be disagreeing.
11. 2025 will be the last year of the current regulatory cycle and 2026 will be the first year of the subsequent cycle, for which an entirely different car to the previous cycle will be required. The Applicant proposes, as a novice constructor, to design and build a car under the 2025 regulations, and then in the very next year to design and build a completely different car under the 2026 regulations. Further, the Applicant proposes to attempt this with a dependency on a compulsory supply from a rival PU manufacturer that will inevitably be reticent to extend its collaboration with the Applicant beyond the minimum required while the Applicant pursues its ambition of collaborating with GM as a PU supplier in the longer term, which a compulsory PU supplier would see as a risk to its intellectual property and know-how.
Given that the commercial agreement between FOM/Teams/FIA which defines the $200m dilution fee expires after 2025 and that there is no agreement in place for 2026 is it any wonder that Andretti based their bid on joining in 2025? They did it because that's essentially what they were asked to do by FOM. It would have been pretty non-credible for Andretti to make a presentation based on a fictional commercial agreement over which they have no power to influence.
As for the PU argument an intellectual property, total rubbish. By that reasoning no customer team could ever change engine supplier.
13. Coming to the sport as a new PU manufacturer is also a huge challenge, with which major automotive manufacturers have struggled in the past, and one which can take a manufacturer a number of years of significant investment in order to become competitive. GM have the resource and credibility to be more than capable of attempting this challenge, but success is not assured.
Right, so they don't want a new customer team with plans to graduate to a works team and they also don't want a new works team..... So what they want is a new customer team with no plans or ambitions then right?
15. The need for any new team to take a compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship.
Nope, they don't want a customer team either.
16. While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around.
A lovely piece of blowing their own trumpet here by FOM.
17. The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors.
And now we're back to the argument about the suitability of the circuits which FOM selected. It turns out that they are unsuitable to accommodate all of the potential teams allowed under the regulations. Oh and they aren't going to share.
20. We would look differently on an application for the entry of a team into the 2028 Championship with a GM power unit, either as a GM works team or as a GM customer team designing all allowable components in-house. In this case there would be additional factors to consider in respect of the value that the Applicant would bring to the Championship, in particular in respect of bringing a prestigious new OEM to the sport as a PU supplier.
It feels like this last statement exists only in an attempt to look reasonable. Given everything they've said previously about the difficulties for new OEM and rookie teams it rings a little hollow.
GlobalRacer said:
skeeterm5 said:
Unless the prize pool is boosted why would other F1 teams want an additional team taking a slice out of their income?
They shouldn't have a say in the matter. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams. However, in considering the best interests of the Championship we took account of the impact of the entry of an 11th team on all commercial stakeholders in the Championship.
I think the key part is ‘11th team’
Current teams have seen their value shoot through the roof and don’t want a new entrant coming in for comparatively nothing. The message is that a new entrant must buy their slots by taking over an existing team.
I would imagine andretti and haas have already had that conversation.
Current teams have seen their value shoot through the roof and don’t want a new entrant coming in for comparatively nothing. The message is that a new entrant must buy their slots by taking over an existing team.
I would imagine andretti and haas have already had that conversation.
Shame on F1, new entrants keep things fresh, interest in F1 will dwindle if it's just the same few teams over and over again.
Almost all of the current teams are new in the past 20 years or so, imagine what we would have missed out on if they were denied entry then too.
With Andretti, F1 has proven that even if you meet the frankly ridiculous entry criteria, the internal politics of F1 means you still won't be let into the club. Where are the next Jordan or Williams supposed to come from or are we all just supposed to get excited about faceless corporate entities going racing?
This is a bad day for the sport.
Almost all of the current teams are new in the past 20 years or so, imagine what we would have missed out on if they were denied entry then too.
With Andretti, F1 has proven that even if you meet the frankly ridiculous entry criteria, the internal politics of F1 means you still won't be let into the club. Where are the next Jordan or Williams supposed to come from or are we all just supposed to get excited about faceless corporate entities going racing?
This is a bad day for the sport.
The Andretti name is a highly recognised name in motorsport and has been for decades. Multiple championships to their name. Putting together a very competent work force. They are not doing this to be also-rans just making up the numbers. That’s probably the problem and maybe 7 or 8 teams are scared of this. The FOM should be ashamed of this decision and this demeans the sport. It’s called motorsport.
dudleybloke said:
The usual suspects throwing their toys out the pram again?
Only McLaren and Alpine publicly supported Andretti joining, everyone else was against it.https://www.crash.net/f1/feature/1043942/1/which-t...
Might as well kick everyone bar red bull out the championship if they only want a competitive, potentially race winning car to enter.
Red Bull will win every race again this season bar another fluke like Singapore as I saw no evidence of any team catching Red Bull and we never saw Red Bull even push to 9 tenths in the second half of the season.
At least with Andretti/Cadillac out of F1 this should prolong their IMSA/WEC involvement.
Red Bull will win every race again this season bar another fluke like Singapore as I saw no evidence of any team catching Red Bull and we never saw Red Bull even push to 9 tenths in the second half of the season.
At least with Andretti/Cadillac out of F1 this should prolong their IMSA/WEC involvement.
realjv said:
They don't and didn't. FOM are clear in their statement about this.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams. However, in considering the best interests of the Championship we took account of the impact of the entry of an 11th team on all commercial stakeholders in the Championship.
If you believe that I have some stuff to sell you. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams. However, in considering the best interests of the Championship we took account of the impact of the entry of an 11th team on all commercial stakeholders in the Championship.
Blib said:
Apparently, the teams were not consulted about this decision.
ETA:
Martin Brundle's view.
Overall, he backs the decision.
The teams made their stance clear on this all season, a final consultation wasn't needed for their opinion to be known. Them 'not being consulted' just gives the teams to be able to say exactly that now.ETA:
Martin Brundle's view.
Overall, he backs the decision.
Edited by Blib on Wednesday 31st January 17:39
Shame… F1 is not that interesting anymore, it’s actually very bland and boring.
In the past you would have dominance but the drivers had more character, the tech evolved faster.
Now it’s none of that… it wasn’t a sport before but it was better for the fans. This current model is probably better for the shareholders. I am out and been out for a few years!
In the past you would have dominance but the drivers had more character, the tech evolved faster.
Now it’s none of that… it wasn’t a sport before but it was better for the fans. This current model is probably better for the shareholders. I am out and been out for a few years!
realjv said:
They don't and didn't. FOM are clear in their statement about this.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams. However, in considering the best interests of the Championship we took account of the impact of the entry of an 11th team on all commercial stakeholders in the Championship.
Any you believe that there was no contact between the teams and FOM at all over this? Just because there was no documented, formal consultation doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of sabre rattling behind the scenes. After all it's not as though nothing has been said to the media.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/full-statement-...
Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams. However, in considering the best interests of the Championship we took account of the impact of the entry of an 11th team on all commercial stakeholders in the Championship.
Some of the apologists appear to think that the outcome of this was inevitable given the franchise model that is now de facto.
The problem is that many of the US sports franchises have mechanisms to ensure competition, such as the draft. The cost cap regs and extra wind tunnel time etc isn't anything like this. So F1 is stuck with a deeply uncompetitive structure that looks less and less likely to ever produce an F1 champion driver or constructor that isn't from Red Bull, Mercedes or Ferrari. Many of us would discount Ferrari too. Sorry Charles.
It can put on Las Vegas events until the cows come home, but it will slowly wither and die as nothing unexpected will ever really happen.
Compare and contrast the Super Bowl that will happen in less than two weeks time. On the face of it, two established teams, so what's so interesting? Well, one of the teams hasn't won the overall contest since 1994. And the same team involves a bloke that gained the unenviable monicker of Mr Irrelevant by being the last pick (262nd) of the draft. And here he is leading his team out to try and beat one led by someone widely regarded as a future GOAT.
Simply not happening in F1 Liberty. So how to fix it? As a start there has to be a way to refresh the team gene pool. If there is a limit to the number of teams, it ought to be higher than the current number. There is a desperate need for more seats for younger drivers. The teams themselves ought to face relegation too if they are consistently crap.
Even then, would it make a difference? I can only see viewership numbers declining. Now might be the time to sell for various owners if they want to get their Billion out.
The problem is that many of the US sports franchises have mechanisms to ensure competition, such as the draft. The cost cap regs and extra wind tunnel time etc isn't anything like this. So F1 is stuck with a deeply uncompetitive structure that looks less and less likely to ever produce an F1 champion driver or constructor that isn't from Red Bull, Mercedes or Ferrari. Many of us would discount Ferrari too. Sorry Charles.
It can put on Las Vegas events until the cows come home, but it will slowly wither and die as nothing unexpected will ever really happen.
Compare and contrast the Super Bowl that will happen in less than two weeks time. On the face of it, two established teams, so what's so interesting? Well, one of the teams hasn't won the overall contest since 1994. And the same team involves a bloke that gained the unenviable monicker of Mr Irrelevant by being the last pick (262nd) of the draft. And here he is leading his team out to try and beat one led by someone widely regarded as a future GOAT.
Simply not happening in F1 Liberty. So how to fix it? As a start there has to be a way to refresh the team gene pool. If there is a limit to the number of teams, it ought to be higher than the current number. There is a desperate need for more seats for younger drivers. The teams themselves ought to face relegation too if they are consistently crap.
Even then, would it make a difference? I can only see viewership numbers declining. Now might be the time to sell for various owners if they want to get their Billion out.
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