Adrian Newey to Ferrari? Is it possible?
Discussion
Forester1965 said:
Minor pedantic point, gardening leave and restrictive covenants are different things. The former tends to be a paid notice period during employment and the latter dictates what you can/can't do once you're off the books.
Given that it's apparantly a Limited Company that is the subject of the contract, not Newey himself, can you even put a company on gardening leave?
The outcome of all this might disappoint.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-adr...
It might be a McLaren/Jaguar/Rahal damp squib repeated, albeit for different reasons. Instead this might simply be Newey's way of getting rid of Horner.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-adr...
It might be a McLaren/Jaguar/Rahal damp squib repeated, albeit for different reasons. Instead this might simply be Newey's way of getting rid of Horner.
I’d like to see him join F1 as their aero advisor / guru and for him to help on rules but also as special advisor he then has to give advice to the bottom 2 teams to help them be more competitive - so teams like Haas and Alpine would benefit from a quick fix to their struggle and help bring the field closer together.
Daft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
Daft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
rallycross said:
I’d like to see him join F1 as their aero advisor / guru and for him to help on rules but also as special advisor he then has to give advice to the bottom 2 teams to help them be more competitive - so teams like Haas and Alpine would benefit from a quick fix to their struggle and help bring the field closer together.
Daft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
It's not such a daft idea, in WRC the promotor is part-funding an up and coming second tier driver to compete on 2 events, in a non-hybrid version of the Rally 1 cars. Not quite the same, but some parallel with our idea. Daft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
WestyCarl said:
But what's force majeure about the current situation? Nothing's changed at RB (there's been some scandal sure but nothing's changed)
Hornergate has triggered a power struggle within Red Bull – be in no doubt, behind the scenes it’s ugly – which has left Newey unhappy. He’s a high-functioning creative genius, the dude needs his head space and comfort zone, if circumstances beyond his control and/or making – ie, a toxic working environment instigated by the recent action(s) of others and/or consequent uncertainty about RB’s future and/or Ford bailing, etc – are affecting his ability to perform his contractual obligations, then he has the right to quit:
“A force majeure clause states that if an extreme, unforeseeable event occurs that prevents or delays a party from performing their contractual obligations, that party will not be in breach of contract as a result of the delay/non-performance.”
In effect, Hornergate and the consequent corporate infighting is the “unforeseeable event”.
Possible outcome: Newey resigns and departs RB asap, claims he needs to consider his future, we hear nothing for 6 months, then in late-Sept it’s announced that he’s joining Aston or Merc or Ferrari or Haas in 2025? Maybe.
8Ace said:
HocusPocus said:
Whatever the contractual structure 1between Newey and RB, some key legal principles will always be stacked against an employer seeking to enforce a restrictive covenant;
1 generally RCs are void as offending the legal principle against restraint of trade;
2 RCs may be enforced in limited circumstances if they are clear and reasonable in scope, geographic area and duration, and protect a legitimate commercial interest (onus on employer to prove); and
3 injunctions to prevent an individual working will only be granted where payment of damages are an inadequate remedy.
Whatever the rights and wrongs, a number can almost always be the fixed. A well constructed part 36 offer of damages in lieu by a new employer could force RB to settle and let him go. Ask Hugh Grant about part 36...
Academic as I expect issues such as this will be resolved behind closed doors between business men armed with their respective lawyers.
Horner may have kicked himself in his own knackers here, where he states that RB success is NOT DEPENDANT ON ADRIAN NEWEY.1 generally RCs are void as offending the legal principle against restraint of trade;
2 RCs may be enforced in limited circumstances if they are clear and reasonable in scope, geographic area and duration, and protect a legitimate commercial interest (onus on employer to prove); and
3 injunctions to prevent an individual working will only be granted where payment of damages are an inadequate remedy.
Whatever the rights and wrongs, a number can almost always be the fixed. A well constructed part 36 offer of damages in lieu by a new employer could force RB to settle and let him go. Ask Hugh Grant about part 36...
Academic as I expect issues such as this will be resolved behind closed doors between business men armed with their respective lawyers.
Given that, it might be tricky to argue that he's utterly vital / irreplacable to the team and can't be released without a trillion pounds in compensation etc.
Mr Pointy said:
Forester1965 said:
Minor pedantic point, gardening leave and restrictive covenants are different things. The former tends to be a paid notice period during employment and the latter dictates what you can/can't do once you're off the books.
Given that it's apparantly a Limited Company that is the subject of the contract, not Newey himself, can you even put a company on gardening leave?But the equivalent could be in the terms of supply they have with his company. A none compete clause would define how quickly his company can offer the same services to a competitor.
But given how desirable he is and therefore his powerful bargaining position, I doubt very much he'd accept terms that limit his future movement. At worst he might not be able to begin work for a competitor within the same season - although for him 'work' is largely thinking about design, so how do you know what he's thinking about ahead of putting pen to paper for Ferrari or Merc next season..?
I feel very confident that if he wishes to continue in F1, he will do and there'll be nothing RBR can do about it.
Nice work by Horner to somehow cause a divide in the team that looks to be the reason he's going to lose his star driver and also star designer. What a plum.
NGK210 said:
WestyCarl said:
But what's force majeure about the current situation? Nothing's changed at RB (there's been some scandal sure but nothing's changed)
Hornergate has triggered a power struggle within Red Bull – be in no doubt, behind the scenes it’s ugly – which has left Newey unhappy. He’s a high-functioning creative genius, the dude needs his head space and comfort zone, if circumstances beyond his control and/or making – ie, a toxic working environment instigated by the recent action(s) of others and/or consequent uncertainty about RB’s future and/or Ford bailing, etc – are affecting his ability to perform his contractual obligations, then he has the right to quit:
“A force majeure clause states that if an extreme, unforeseeable event occurs that prevents or delays a party from performing their contractual obligations, that party will not be in breach of contract as a result of the delay/non-performance.”
In effect, Hornergate and the consequent corporate infighting is the “unforeseeable event”.
Possible outcome: Newey resigns and departs RB asap, claims he needs to consider his future, we hear nothing for 6 months, then in late-Sept it’s announced that he’s joining Aston or Merc or Ferrari or Haas in 2025? Maybe.
In my experience Force Majeure is natural dsiasters, wars, an exceptional event. One employee making a complaint against your boss isn't this.
WestyCarl said:
NGK210 said:
WestyCarl said:
But what's force majeure about the current situation? Nothing's changed at RB (there's been some scandal sure but nothing's changed)
Hornergate has triggered a power struggle within Red Bull – be in no doubt, behind the scenes it’s ugly – which has left Newey unhappy. He’s a high-functioning creative genius, the dude needs his head space and comfort zone, if circumstances beyond his control and/or making – ie, a toxic working environment instigated by the recent action(s) of others and/or consequent uncertainty about RB’s future and/or Ford bailing, etc – are affecting his ability to perform his contractual obligations, then he has the right to quit:
“A force majeure clause states that if an extreme, unforeseeable event occurs that prevents or delays a party from performing their contractual obligations, that party will not be in breach of contract as a result of the delay/non-performance.”
In effect, Hornergate and the consequent corporate infighting is the “unforeseeable event”.
Possible outcome: Newey resigns and departs RB asap, claims he needs to consider his future, we hear nothing for 6 months, then in late-Sept it’s announced that he’s joining Aston or Merc or Ferrari or Haas in 2025? Maybe.
In my experience Force Majeure is natural dsiasters, wars, an exceptional event. One employee making a complaint against your boss isn't this.
kambites said:
Leithen said:
Instead this might simply be Newey's way of getting rid of Horner.
There could be an element of both - basically an ultimatum to the executives from Newey of "you need to choose between Horner and me". He might have just said "sorry this is all a bit too sleazy for me, and to be honest the culture is not for me any more"
vaud said:
kambites said:
Leithen said:
Instead this might simply be Newey's way of getting rid of Horner.
There could be an element of both - basically an ultimatum to the executives from Newey of "you need to choose between Horner and me". He might have just said "sorry this is all a bit too sleazy for me, and to be honest the culture is not for me any more"
He's a racer and loves racing, if there's too much baggage around that he starts to be put off.
I can't imagine this power struggle in Red Bull and him being a pawn/subject to a tug-of-war is in any way appealing to him at all.
Muzzer79 said:
From reading his book and interviews over the year, he seems to be very apolitical.
He's a racer and loves racing, if there's too much baggage around that he starts to be put off.
I can't imagine this power struggle in Red Bull and him being a pawn/subject to a tug-of-war is in any way appealing to him at all.
I've heard that about him too, which makes a move to Ferrari all the more unlikely, surely.He's a racer and loves racing, if there's too much baggage around that he starts to be put off.
I can't imagine this power struggle in Red Bull and him being a pawn/subject to a tug-of-war is in any way appealing to him at all.
I suppose he could want 'one last big challenge', which would certainly make things very interesting.
vaud said:
No need for an ultimatum, or for it ever to be Newey vs Horner.
He might have just said "sorry this is all a bit too sleazy for me, and to be honest the culture is not for me any more"
Which amounts to much the same thing, because it gives Redbull the choice between losing Newey or changing the culture at the team. Does anyone seriously believe that "fixing" the culture at Redbull is possible with Horner in place? He might have just said "sorry this is all a bit too sleazy for me, and to be honest the culture is not for me any more"
Big Nanas said:
Muzzer79 said:
From reading his book and interviews over the year, he seems to be very apolitical.
He's a racer and loves racing, if there's too much baggage around that he starts to be put off.
I can't imagine this power struggle in Red Bull and him being a pawn/subject to a tug-of-war is in any way appealing to him at all.
I've heard that about him too, which makes a move to Ferrari all the more unlikely, surely.He's a racer and loves racing, if there's too much baggage around that he starts to be put off.
I can't imagine this power struggle in Red Bull and him being a pawn/subject to a tug-of-war is in any way appealing to him at all.
.
I'm not convinced that Vasseur is the long term man there, but Elkann certainly seems to have control so if Newey is tied to him, he should be safe.
I'm still not convinced he'll want to go to Italy, or that Ferrari will let him set up in the UK as an alternative - the latter was a nightmare in the John Barnard days.
My money is on retirement and/or another series/discipline.
Muzzer79 said:
Depends who he is working for at Ferrari and what the structure is.
I'm not convinced that Vasseur is the long term man there, but Elkann certainly seems to have control so if Newey is tied to him, he should be safe.
I'm still not convinced he'll want to go to Italy, or that Ferrari will let him set up in the UK as an alternative - the latter was a nightmare in the John Barnard days.
My money is on retirement and/or another series/discipline.
The Americas Cup, perhaps? I'm not convinced that Vasseur is the long term man there, but Elkann certainly seems to have control so if Newey is tied to him, he should be safe.
I'm still not convinced he'll want to go to Italy, or that Ferrari will let him set up in the UK as an alternative - the latter was a nightmare in the John Barnard days.
My money is on retirement and/or another series/discipline.
rallycross said:
I’d like to see him join F1 as their aero advisor / guru and for him to help on rules but also as special advisor he then has to give advice to the bottom 2 teams to help them be more competitive - so teams like Haas and Alpine would benefit from a quick fix to their struggle and help bring the field closer together.
Daft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
I can't see him being interested in developing rules at all. His mind doesn't work like that; he wants to innovate and lead a team that can come up with innovative solutions. He'd make a fascinating lecturer. William Toet is on the lecture circuitDaft idea would never happen but would be a great way to help smaller teams and give him an interesting role to keep him busy and avoid having one team always miles ahead in aero design….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kixMMfEQ-FA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eHtaa-Z8jI&pp...
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