Discussion
usn90 said:
Interesting that you mention the cost cap, I wonder if without it the we’d have more competition at the front, or would RB just be even further ahead
Mercedes' F1 made £80m profit last financial year. Even if you assume they wouldn't choose to make a loss to catch up, that's a lot they could've spent to catch up. usn90 said:
Interesting that you mention the cost cap, I wonder if without it the we’d have more competition at the front, or would RB just be even further ahead
Maybe the top money teams like Merc, Ferrari and RB would stretch away from the rest but then M and F would start catching RB due to diminishing returns. Still prefer the cost cap but there needs to be some sort of handicap that makes a bigger difference. Maybe a on track handicap rather than development one as it doesn’t appear to be making any difference even after RB were penalised for cheating. At this point the racing is so s
te I think adding some uncertainty or handicap to races wouldn’t hurt anyone. Maybe ultra reduced practice sessions for leaders would help bring them all together as less optimisation.
Anything ANYTHING to give it a mix up.
If we want uncertainty and exciting races, there has to be some element of uncertainty elsewhere. Otherwise these teams will just deliver 100% of their car's potential, and that's that.
New regs frequently cause some change. So does weather (remember Bernie talking about sprinklers back in the day?). Reliability was a big issue years ago (both engines and tyres), but no longer. If the cars are too hard to drive, the drivers will claim it is too dangerous.
Just imagine current power levels, but half the tyre width. Or a lot less downforce.
Things like DRS are no use here. In a spec series they'd be interesting; but here they just remove the element of driver skill. The vast analytical power available to teams means there's very little intuition involved in matters such as pit stops, tyre strategy, and so on - simulation has replaced skill.
So what to do?
Regulation changes every season would be an idea. As would things like reverse - or even random - grids. But the fundamental problem seems to be that teams simply can't develop their cars in this new era, despite the levelled playing field of budget caps.
One idea might be to borrow something from (IIRC) a Swedish "stock car" series - allow any team to require any engine manufacturer to supply them. The new regulations were designed to allow engines to be interchangeable (common mountings to the chassis, for instance), but in practice this hasn't been especially useful. Maybe that's an idea? Hard to tell.
New regs frequently cause some change. So does weather (remember Bernie talking about sprinklers back in the day?). Reliability was a big issue years ago (both engines and tyres), but no longer. If the cars are too hard to drive, the drivers will claim it is too dangerous.
Just imagine current power levels, but half the tyre width. Or a lot less downforce.
Things like DRS are no use here. In a spec series they'd be interesting; but here they just remove the element of driver skill. The vast analytical power available to teams means there's very little intuition involved in matters such as pit stops, tyre strategy, and so on - simulation has replaced skill.
So what to do?
Regulation changes every season would be an idea. As would things like reverse - or even random - grids. But the fundamental problem seems to be that teams simply can't develop their cars in this new era, despite the levelled playing field of budget caps.
One idea might be to borrow something from (IIRC) a Swedish "stock car" series - allow any team to require any engine manufacturer to supply them. The new regulations were designed to allow engines to be interchangeable (common mountings to the chassis, for instance), but in practice this hasn't been especially useful. Maybe that's an idea? Hard to tell.
I have followed F1 since the early 1990's will be honest and say I hated the Schumacher era and it seems we are having another, to know who is going to win the next race in advance is crazy, I have little or no interest in seeing Max winning race after race and seeing him racing unchallenged all the time has killed the sport for me.
Crazy to think that if RB ace the new rules we could have 10 years of this, is that going to be good for sport.
It does also puzzle me that for all the noise made by RB in the Mercedes era and slowing them down nothing is being said in regards to RB.
Budget cap has also killed the sport as it is not allowing the teams to catch up.
Maybe it is wrong to say it but I do find RB and Max completely unlikeable.
Crazy to think that if RB ace the new rules we could have 10 years of this, is that going to be good for sport.
It does also puzzle me that for all the noise made by RB in the Mercedes era and slowing them down nothing is being said in regards to RB.
Budget cap has also killed the sport as it is not allowing the teams to catch up.
Maybe it is wrong to say it but I do find RB and Max completely unlikeable.
Blib said:
All we need is for Max to suffer a six month long grumbling appendix.
Are you sure? Albon and Sainz have been performing better than ever since their Appendectomies!Edit - also, I just realised six months might not be enough. Wasn't it the case that even if Max hadn't bothered returning from the summer break last year, he'd have still won the championship?
Edited by durbster on Monday 22 April 10:07
WPA said:
I have followed F1 since the early 1990's will be honest and say I hated the Schumacher era and it seems we are having another, to know who is going to win the next race in advance is crazy, I have little or no interest in seeing Max winning race after race and seeing him racing unchallenged all the time has killed the sport for me.
Crazy to think that if RB ace the new rules we could have 10 years of this, is that going to be good for sport.
It does also puzzle me that for all the noise made by RB in the Mercedes era and slowing them down nothing is being said in regards to RB.
Budget cap has also killed the sport as it is not allowing the teams to catch up.
Maybe it is wrong to say it but I do find RB and Max completely unlikeable.
Yeah, it's as bad as it has been since I started watching in 1842. The Schumacher years were very boring, but at least we had magical V10-engined cars to keep us entertained, so it was still worth attending races for that alone.Crazy to think that if RB ace the new rules we could have 10 years of this, is that going to be good for sport.
It does also puzzle me that for all the noise made by RB in the Mercedes era and slowing them down nothing is being said in regards to RB.
Budget cap has also killed the sport as it is not allowing the teams to catch up.
Maybe it is wrong to say it but I do find RB and Max completely unlikeable.
Verstappen is racking up crazy stats whilst having to do no racing whatsoever. It's really weird, he's obviously extremely fast but I can't see him as being alongside the greats until he's had some consisent competition and succeeded. When he did have a fight for the title under pressure, he choked.
Muzzer79 said:
Crazy fact
Since crossing the line in Abu Dhabi in December 2021 - nearly two and a half years ago - There has only been 11 races that Verstappen hasn't won.
11.........out of 49.
I respect the achievement, but that kind of domination will kill any sport........
It's the fact that he's completely unopposed that kills it for me. If he'd had to dig deep for those victories it would be a lot more acceptable, but all he has to do is beat Sergio Perez every two weeks.Since crossing the line in Abu Dhabi in December 2021 - nearly two and a half years ago - There has only been 11 races that Verstappen hasn't won.
11.........out of 49.
I respect the achievement, but that kind of domination will kill any sport........
paulguitar said:
It's the fact that he's completely unopposed that kills it for me. If he'd had to dig deep for those victories it would be a lot more acceptable, but all he has to do is beat Sergio Perez every two weeks.
+1 for me.It's worse than that as Check isn't allowed to beat him.
I'm still not convinced on Max as he's never really had to race anyone for all those victories. The time will come and then it'll get interesting as I suspect he won't be able to handle it. The bricks will be thrown out of the pram.
paulguitar said:
Verstappen is racking up crazy stats whilst having to do no racing whatsoever.
Yeah this is probably the bit that bothers me the most. He's winning at a canter which makes a bit of a mockery of the sport.It's a problem that F1 has had for most of the last 10-15 years now, and I don't know what the solution is. The cost cap is part of the problem but having the team that spends the most money winning isn't great either.
The only thing I can think of to break the cycle is to design the rules so the cars can't be quick at every track, if that's possible.
Maybe you could give the teams two paths - straight line speed or downforce. Every team is given 100 "performance points" and they can allocate them however they like between horsepower or, I dunno, wing size i.e. they can have 100 extra horsepower but they'd have to have the minimum sized wings, or vice versa. Something like that.
Harry H said:
paulguitar said:
It's the fact that he's completely unopposed that kills it for me. If he'd had to dig deep for those victories it would be a lot more acceptable, but all he has to do is beat Sergio Perez every two weeks.
+1 for me.It's worse than that as Check isn't allowed to beat him.
I'm still not convinced on Max as he's never really had to race anyone for all those victories. The time will come and then it'll get interesting as I suspect he won't be able to handle it. The bricks will be thrown out of the pram.
- Checo isn't prevented from beating him. This isn't a Ferrari-era Schumacher we're talking about - Checo just isn't fast enough.
- Max's talent is clearly enormous. One can tell that from his performances in 2015-2021. This is not a driver who is only benefitting from a very quick car.
- He took it to Lewis in a closely-matched car in 2021. Yes, the outcome was wrong (not Max's fault) but I suspect that 2024 Max wouldn't have performed like 2021 Max did that season.
- One could argue that all Lewis Hamilton had to do was beat Rosberg/Bottas every two weeks for a sizeable chunk of 2014-2020. Yes, he had more competition from Ferrari and then Red Bull but 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019 and 2020 were all Mercedes.
Muzzer79 said:
- One could argue that all Lewis Hamilton had to do was beat Rosberg/Bottas every two weeks for a sizeable chunk of 2014-2020. Yes, he had more competition from Ferrari and then Red Bull but 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019 and 2020 were all Mercedes.
Aside from that, it wasn't. While not many would argue that Rosberg was quite on Hamilton's ultimate level, he was good enough to give him a properly hard time on occasions and after all, he took a title from him, albeit with a bit of good fortune.
The Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 was a genuine title contender, and would likely have won the WDC if Mercedes had not had Hamilton, as Luca Di Montezemelo pointed out.
What we have now is complete domination. It's a lot like 1992. Verstappen is ticking off victories with literally no threat, It's just turn up and win. Every event. Same thing. Until something changes, this will keep happening, in every race. He could sail into being the statistical greatest ever, having done virtually no racing since 2021, when he somewhat fell apart.
It's surreal.
I get that one team dominating can be tedious. But when it's one team and one driver, it's doubly so. I've posted this before, but it highlights just how uncompetitive it is at the moment.
It's all very well saying the racing's close further down the field, but it's the winning of the race that's all important. Nobody remembers the people 3rd and lower.
It's all very well saying the racing's close further down the field, but it's the winning of the race that's all important. Nobody remembers the people 3rd and lower.
paulguitar said:
Muzzer79 said:
- One could argue that all Lewis Hamilton had to do was beat Rosberg/Bottas every two weeks for a sizeable chunk of 2014-2020. Yes, he had more competition from Ferrari and then Red Bull but 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019 and 2020 were all Mercedes.
Aside from that, it wasn't. While not many would argue that Rosberg was quite on Hamilton's ultimate level, he was good enough to give him a properly hard time on occasions and after all, he took a title from him, albeit with a bit of good fortune.
The Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 was a genuine title contender, and would likely have won the WDC if Mercedes had not had Hamilton, as Luca Di Montezemelo pointed out.
What we have now is complete domination. It's a lot like 1992. Verstappen is ticking off victories with literally no threat, It's just turn up and win. Every event. Same thing. Until something changes, this will keep happening, in every race. He could sail into being the statistical greatest ever, having done virtually no racing since 2021, when he somewhat fell apart.
It's surreal.
I do get your point on competition, that Max doesn't have right now.
Verstappen can't be blamed for that though! If he goes on to break all the records, that's just that. We'll never know whether he's the best of all time if he does so, or just plain lucky. There's two ways to measure the skill of a driver - subjectively using opinion. Or objectively using results. Results stay forever, opinions die off.
From the 11 non victories that Max has 'suffered', how many were mechanical failure not attributes to outside forces (hitting kerbs/walls or being hit by other cars)?
Like him or loathe him, Max is something special in an F1 car. To pull out the faps he does in such a short space of time whether against Checo or anyone else, is just phenomenal. Nico Rosberg rightly placed him in the top 5 drivers of all time yesterday. Hard to argue against that.
Does it make for interesting racing? No, obviously not. But all the teams have the same design brief. Just not every team has an Adrian Newey.
Like him or loathe him, Max is something special in an F1 car. To pull out the faps he does in such a short space of time whether against Checo or anyone else, is just phenomenal. Nico Rosberg rightly placed him in the top 5 drivers of all time yesterday. Hard to argue against that.
Does it make for interesting racing? No, obviously not. But all the teams have the same design brief. Just not every team has an Adrian Newey.
oyster said:
All those who top the record books have had periods in dominant cars though. All the way through the sport's history.
I do get your point on competition, that Max doesn't have right now.
Verstappen can't be blamed for that though! If he goes on to break all the records, that's just that. We'll never know whether he's the best of all time if he does so, or just plain lucky. There's two ways to measure the skill of a driver - subjectively using opinion. Or objectively using results. Results stay forever, opinions die off.
There's no doubt he's a driver of rare talent. But we've had a fair few of those in the sport's history, and the usual procedure is they get to prove that talent by racing the other cars and drivers. Not his fault, as you point out, but tedious for us and perhaps even for him.I do get your point on competition, that Max doesn't have right now.
Verstappen can't be blamed for that though! If he goes on to break all the records, that's just that. We'll never know whether he's the best of all time if he does so, or just plain lucky. There's two ways to measure the skill of a driver - subjectively using opinion. Or objectively using results. Results stay forever, opinions die off.
In the past, he has shown to not be too great under pressure, and that is where we get to see what makes the greats truly great.
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