Discussion
Jasandjules said:
There is not enough evidence to support it to that extent for me.
He has had some cracking drives, for example Brazil in the wet. But then it was only when he has had a car with such an advantage that he is winning by such a margin. In 2021 he was challenged and came up way, way short resorting to all sorts of "tactics", some of which should have resulted in a DQ.
Since getting the rocketship he has driven well, but even now when slightly challenged it falls away.
There is no doubt he is good, has to be to keep it on the track and not make many mistakes.
BUT the only way we will really know is if he gets into a slower car and is able to battle for wins. I don't think he would. Or we put a top tier driver in the other Red Bull (even Sainz and Riccardio were putting manners on him in similar kit).
He has won a race in every year since he stepped up to RBR, even when Mercs were far superior.He has had some cracking drives, for example Brazil in the wet. But then it was only when he has had a car with such an advantage that he is winning by such a margin. In 2021 he was challenged and came up way, way short resorting to all sorts of "tactics", some of which should have resulted in a DQ.
Since getting the rocketship he has driven well, but even now when slightly challenged it falls away.
There is no doubt he is good, has to be to keep it on the track and not make many mistakes.
BUT the only way we will really know is if he gets into a slower car and is able to battle for wins. I don't think he would. Or we put a top tier driver in the other Red Bull (even Sainz and Riccardio were putting manners on him in similar kit).
2019-20 he was the only driver who tame ill handling RBRs because of aero correlation issues and made the management look stupid by sacking Gasly and Albon who aren't bad drivers per se but because Max is that good most can't keep up with Max consistently as we now see with Perez.
If we can just ignore the controversies of 2021 and appreciate that we arguably the greatest fight for a WDC with the contenders battling out what seemed like nearly every race and coming down to wheel-to-wheel fights; if it was Norris or CLC they would have choked and got DNFs rather go down to the wire at Abu Dhabi.
Eric Mc said:
He may be another Jim Clark - who won most of his races by disappearing off into the distance with nobody catching him.
The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
He wasn't Jim Clark until he got a massively superior car.The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
I know tis is probably contentious, but IMHO Perez is having another shocker. Media (and RB) seem to suggest that he's had a strong start, but f*ck me, he should be! He's got the same car as Max. But, he is consistently finishing way behind Max (between 13s and 56s, so far this year) and providing zero in the way of a challenge. RB could care less about this lack of competition to Max, as long as they are smashing both championships. They have no incentive to replace Perez. I mean, why would they? He brings cash and he's doing 'enough'. Why even consider a change to say Sainz, which could challenge and p*ss Max off.
All jolly nice for RB, but utter tedium for the rest of us. At least when Lewis and Mercedes were dominating we had some challenging drives from NR, VB and SV.
I gave Sky the heave-ho because of cost and Croft, After 50 years of watching F1, I now look forward less and less to the each GP. I try to remain optimistic, but I can't see this changing much before '26.
All jolly nice for RB, but utter tedium for the rest of us. At least when Lewis and Mercedes were dominating we had some challenging drives from NR, VB and SV.
I gave Sky the heave-ho because of cost and Croft, After 50 years of watching F1, I now look forward less and less to the each GP. I try to remain optimistic, but I can't see this changing much before '26.
paulguitar said:
Eric Mc said:
He may be another Jim Clark - who won most of his races by disappearing off into the distance with nobody catching him.
The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
He wasn't Jim Clark until he got a massively superior car.The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
Harry Flatters said:
I know tis is probably contentious, but IMHO Perez is having another shocker. Media (and RB) seem to suggest that he's had a strong start, but f*ck me, he should be! He's got the same car as Max. But, he is consistently finishing way behind Max (between 13s and 56s, so far this year) and providing zero in the way of a challenge. RB could care less about this lack of competition to Max, as long as they are smashing both championships. They have no incentive to replace Perez. I mean, why would they? He brings cash and he's doing 'enough'. Why even consider a change to say Sainz, which could challenge and p*ss Max off.
All jolly nice for RB, but utter tedium for the rest of us. At least when Lewis and Mercedes were dominating we had some challenging drives from NR, VB and SV.
I gave Sky the heave-ho because of cost and Croft, After 50 years of watching F1, I now look forward less and less to the each GP. I try to remain optimistic, but I can't see this changing much before '26.
Yep, spot on there.All jolly nice for RB, but utter tedium for the rest of us. At least when Lewis and Mercedes were dominating we had some challenging drives from NR, VB and SV.
I gave Sky the heave-ho because of cost and Croft, After 50 years of watching F1, I now look forward less and less to the each GP. I try to remain optimistic, but I can't see this changing much before '26.
If Verstappen wins all of the races until '26, what will his stats be then? I reckon he'll be somewhere close to Hamilton's records, having breezed past Michael Schumacher on the way.
It's all a bit hollow.
I was reading through some old threads earlier and came across this, from 2020.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
paulguitar said:
Yep, spot on there.
If Verstappen wins all of the races until '26, what will his stats be then? I reckon he'll be somewhere close to Hamilton's records, having breezed past Michael Schumacher on the way.
It's all a bit hollow.
the best driver doing the best job in the best designed car, supported by the operationally top team. Hollow, you say. Do you not understand the objectives of sport?If Verstappen wins all of the races until '26, what will his stats be then? I reckon he'll be somewhere close to Hamilton's records, having breezed past Michael Schumacher on the way.
It's all a bit hollow.
Muzzer79 said:
I was reading through some old threads earlier and came across this, from 2020.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
Very amused to see who started that thread... These days he has no problems with domination at all. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
paulguitar said:
deadslow said:
the best driver doing the best job in the best designed car, supported by the operationally top team. Hollow, you say. Do you not understand the objectives of sport?
You know perfectly well what I mean.as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
deadslow said:
yes, as entertainment, it really isn't working for you.
as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
The difference is that what we have now is the equivalent of Usain Bolt getting to run in running shoes and everyone else having to wear clown shoes.as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
paulguitar said:
deadslow said:
yes, as entertainment, it really isn't working for you.
as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
The difference is that what we have now is the equivalent of Usain Bolt getting to run in running shoes and everyone else having to wear clown shoes.as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
Nobody is saying that Red Bull should be slowed down. They've done a magnificent job and, just like Mercedes before them, it's up to the others to catch up, not Red Bull to be handicapped.
It's not Red Bull's (or Max's) fault that the car is so good. Max isn't going to drive it slower to make his achievements more 'worthwhile' just as Mansell didn't in 1992, Schumacher didn't in 2002, Vettel didn't in 2011 and Hamilton didn't in 2020.
It's up to the sport to create a series that's exciting but even F1 can't legislate for one designer being cleverer than all the others. We don't want a spec series.
Balancing creativity of engineers and excitement for the viewer is one of the most difficult problems to solve.
paulguitar said:
Muzzer79 said:
I was reading through some old threads earlier and came across this, from 2020.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
Very amused to see who started that thread... These days he has no problems with domination at all. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The number of people convinced that Mercedes would dominate for evermore is a little startling. The notion that Mercedes would be challenged even in 2021 was not out there.
So there is hope. Red Bull could get it wrong. Another team could get it right. Domination has to end at some point and it's not necessarily 2026.
paulguitar said:
Eric Mc said:
He may be another Jim Clark - who won most of his races by disappearing off into the distance with nobody catching him.
The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
He wasn't Jim Clark until he got a massively superior car.The thing is, we just don't know yet because he isn't being challenged enough. I'd like to see him with a better and more capable team mate and no team orders.
Muzzer79 said:
The Usain Bolt analogy doesn't work. Running is a 99% human-performance sport. F1 is a mix of man and machine at a ratio far lower in terms of human element.
Nobody is saying that Red Bull should be slowed down. They've done a magnificent job and, just like Mercedes before them, it's up to the others to catch up, not Red Bull to be handicapped.
It's not Red Bull's (or Max's) fault that the car is so good. Max isn't going to drive it slower to make his achievements more 'worthwhile' just as Mansell didn't in 1992, Schumacher didn't in 2002, Vettel didn't in 2011 and Hamilton didn't in 2020.
It's up to the sport to create a series that's exciting but even F1 can't legislate for one designer being cleverer than all the others. We don't want a spec series.
Balancing creativity of engineers and excitement for the viewer is one of the most difficult problems to solve.
Fair points there, (as usual) but there is some sense in the Bolt analogy as the other 'runners' really do currently have zero chance of competing due to their 'shoes'.Nobody is saying that Red Bull should be slowed down. They've done a magnificent job and, just like Mercedes before them, it's up to the others to catch up, not Red Bull to be handicapped.
It's not Red Bull's (or Max's) fault that the car is so good. Max isn't going to drive it slower to make his achievements more 'worthwhile' just as Mansell didn't in 1992, Schumacher didn't in 2002, Vettel didn't in 2011 and Hamilton didn't in 2020.
It's up to the sport to create a series that's exciting but even F1 can't legislate for one designer being cleverer than all the others. We don't want a spec series.
Balancing creativity of engineers and excitement for the viewer is one of the most difficult problems to solve.
In the past steps have been taken to even up the contest. My instincts are not in favour of that, but this is getting to be a problem. One has to wonder if Verstappen eases his way to another 30 or so unopposed victories whether there will be many people still watching, or even awake.
I was planning to go to at least one event this season but I'm leaning towards cancelling. The cars are hopeless live and the winner is already decided. What kind of sporting contest is that?
paulguitar said:
deadslow said:
yes, as entertainment, it really isn't working for you.
as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
The difference is that what we have now is the equivalent of Usain Bolt getting to run in running shoes and everyone else having to wear clown shoes.as a sporting achievement Max/RB are doing what the others have failed to do. I assume you believe Usain Bolt should have been made to run in wellie boots, with such a hollow achievement as his.
deadslow said:
Utter nonsense - none of them have to wear clown shoes. They all designed the shoes themselves - that's part of the sport.
Well, that's a fair point. The situation though is that they are wearing clown shoes, and so 16 of the world's finest drivers (and Stroll) are wasting their time even showing up.
Edited by paulguitar on Wednesday 24th April 11:14
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