Nigel Mansell one of the Greats ?
Discussion
TwentyFive said:
Evangelion said:
I'll believe Hamilton is one of the greats when he manages to win races without having a car that's a second a lap faster than anyone else's.
Others have used 2009 and 2013 as examples here but to my mind the stand out example is actually when he won the world title in 2008. The Ferrari was widely regarded to be the overall better package that season which is supported by the fact that Kimi and Massa won the constructors title for Ferrari.
Ferrari won 9 races, McLaren won 7.
Yet it was Lewis who won the drivers championship. Surely this proves he can win without a clear car advantage and make up the shortfall himself.
A fair overview here
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-would-le...
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Not at all, but the preceeding Thursday in Stuttgart was one to remember 
What did you do that day?To be fair the race was considerably more interesting than Paul Ricard '19 that we also attended. Fine hospitality mind you.
They really should bin F1 at Paul Ricard
paulguitar said:
MarkwG said:
talk of "let's see him win in a Haas" are irrelevant.
It's the last refuge of the head-in-sand brigade. We all know Hamilton won't drive a Haas, being clearly the best driver. So it's an irrelevant argument. It's weird that we don't hear talk of Fangio's abilities being overrated because he never drove a BRM V16....and, unlike Moss, loved it.
ettore said:
paulguitar said:
MarkwG said:
talk of "let's see him win in a Haas" are irrelevant.
It's the last refuge of the head-in-sand brigade. We all know Hamilton won't drive a Haas, being clearly the best driver. So it's an irrelevant argument. It's weird that we don't hear talk of Fangio's abilities being overrated because he never drove a BRM V16....and, unlike Moss, loved it.
ettore said:
He actually did drive the BRM V16..
...and, unlike Moss, loved it.
Did he? I vaguely remember an article about it saying he hated it?...and, unlike Moss, loved it.
EDIT: Never mind I've done some digging, it sounds like he did enjoy it!
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/21081-juan-manu...
Quite an interesting thread, breath of fresh air compared to some stuff that gets spouted over there!
Edited by grassomaniac on Thursday 27th August 15:02
mat205125 said:
Mansell is certainly one of the greats, and one of the quickest on the basis of raw speed
Also has to be in with a shout of greatness recognition, purely on the basis of being the only driver ever to be F1 and IndyCar champion at the same time
Why do people put so much emphasis on his CART success?, I get it’s a different discipline but it wasn’t all ovals and at road circuits he was in his element, he was in his prime, he had a competitive team, the competition was largely average, I just don’t get it. Had he added Le Mans to his achievements I’d understand the accolades but we know how that went.Also has to be in with a shout of greatness recognition, purely on the basis of being the only driver ever to be F1 and IndyCar champion at the same time
pablo said:
mat205125 said:
Mansell is certainly one of the greats, and one of the quickest on the basis of raw speed
Also has to be in with a shout of greatness recognition, purely on the basis of being the only driver ever to be F1 and IndyCar champion at the same time
Why do people put so much emphasis on his CART success?, I get it’s a different discipline but it wasn’t all ovals and at road circuits he was in his element, he was in his prime, he had a competitive team, the competition was largely average, I just don’t get it. Had he added Le Mans to his achievements I’d understand the accolades but we know how that went.Also has to be in with a shout of greatness recognition, purely on the basis of being the only driver ever to be F1 and IndyCar champion at the same time
Using the logic, we should classify Jacques Villeneuve as a great (which he patently isn't) because he was Indycar champion and F1 champion within 3 seasons.
The fact that Mansell was champion of both disciplines at the same time was largely coincidence. It's not like he did both series at the same time - it just happened that he secured the '93 Indycar title before Prost secured the '93 F1 title....
Muzzer79 said:
I will agree it's a little odd.
Using the logic, we should classify Jacques Villeneuve as a great (which he patently isn't) because he was Indycar champion and F1 champion within 3 seasons.
I think the Villeneuve example is a little extreme given he grew up racing on road courses so moving to F1 wasn't exactly new as a concept for him. It is therefore expected that he would be fast when moving to F1 compared to Mansell moving the other way.Using the logic, we should classify Jacques Villeneuve as a great (which he patently isn't) because he was Indycar champion and F1 champion within 3 seasons.
Mansell had a much harder transition moving to a discipline with Ovals which was a totally alien concept to him and yet he still won the title at the first go.
Many people forget that Mansell won 5 races that season and critically 4 of those wins were on Ovals and not the road courses which is very impressive in my view.
To Villeneuve credit he was superb at Indy in his two attempts before F1. 2nd and 1st place finishes at the 500 with the win coming despite being two laps down earlier on in the race.
Mansell also had a really big injury to his back early in the Indy season when he hit the wall hard backwards on the Oval. He was driving with pain killer pumped into his back which left him completely numb, anyone who drives a car at the limit knows how that would affect your ability to drive quickly.
I think my only point about CART, and even to this day is that in certain circumstances even racers that have raced over there for years will be beaten by a far brighter talent.
Nigel was at the time probably behind only Prost and Senna in terms of talent, and in CART terms possibly ahead of either of them if they all moved over, in that the cars were very "manual", hard to drive needing brute force to some extent, turbo lag, difficult, far more than F1 cars of the time, though equally challenging I dare say.
If you stuck Lewis or Schumacher in their prime remember in the best CART team I am sure they would also win the title, as the CART drivers, though very good at what they do, are not as good talent wise, or they would, amazingly also not be in CART, they would be in F1. Remember Andretti, that was disastrous.
What it did do is open the eyes on F1 teams to people like Villeneuve, Zanardi (although that failed miserably) Da Matta and Montoya et al who all did varying well.
Nigel was at the time probably behind only Prost and Senna in terms of talent, and in CART terms possibly ahead of either of them if they all moved over, in that the cars were very "manual", hard to drive needing brute force to some extent, turbo lag, difficult, far more than F1 cars of the time, though equally challenging I dare say.
If you stuck Lewis or Schumacher in their prime remember in the best CART team I am sure they would also win the title, as the CART drivers, though very good at what they do, are not as good talent wise, or they would, amazingly also not be in CART, they would be in F1. Remember Andretti, that was disastrous.
What it did do is open the eyes on F1 teams to people like Villeneuve, Zanardi (although that failed miserably) Da Matta and Montoya et al who all did varying well.
It is received wisdom that Michael Andretti's F 1 adventure showed he wasn't up to it . But actually, I'm not so sure . He had the speed ,even if it wasn't Senna quick (and only Prost could match Senna consistently ) and I remember seeing him in the dry at Donington in 93 - he looked far more at home in an F1 car than , say ,Zanardi ever did .
I heard dad Mario in a podcast still sounding peeved that Michael wouldn't do the F 1thing wholeheartedly - by moving to Europe for a start .
It was a misjudged adventure - but I suspect it could have worked with a bit more effort
I heard dad Mario in a podcast still sounding peeved that Michael wouldn't do the F 1thing wholeheartedly - by moving to Europe for a start .
It was a misjudged adventure - but I suspect it could have worked with a bit more effort
I agree with other posters that Andretti could have achieved a lot more had he moved full time to Europe and I have little doubt that had Mansell remained in Europe during his US adventure then we would be here wondering what he could have achieved as it was his relocation for the job that allowed him to be so successful unlike Andretti in the other direction.
As for the other examples being used I think Zanardi and Da Matta were actually a lot better that their F1 records show. Both were lumbered with dog cars for their F1 careers but also showed moments of great speed. I think they could have achieved far more in F1 with the right kit. Da Matta in particular looked the real deal in the Newman Haas but the Toyota was a shambles. I genuinely think he could have made a Montoya type impression if he had a comparable car to what Juan Pablo had back in 2001 but it wasn't meant to be.
Montoya and Villeneuve are the only two to have ever really made the switch to F1 work and even they needed the top kit to be successful. There are some others who I would have loved to have seen make the jump to F1 who I think would have been top notch and they were Dan Wheldon, Dario Franchitti and Scott Dixon. I would like to see Josef Newgarden come to F1 at some point too as he is a top talent.
But heading back to the Mansell point, many F1 guys have raced in CART with the odd win or podiums in the US but none have gone there and won the title without having considerable years in the US before winning. Barrichello is a good modern example of an F1 driver who went to the states full time. He finished 12th in the championship and only made the top 6 twice. Mansell won the championship.
As for the other examples being used I think Zanardi and Da Matta were actually a lot better that their F1 records show. Both were lumbered with dog cars for their F1 careers but also showed moments of great speed. I think they could have achieved far more in F1 with the right kit. Da Matta in particular looked the real deal in the Newman Haas but the Toyota was a shambles. I genuinely think he could have made a Montoya type impression if he had a comparable car to what Juan Pablo had back in 2001 but it wasn't meant to be.
Montoya and Villeneuve are the only two to have ever really made the switch to F1 work and even they needed the top kit to be successful. There are some others who I would have loved to have seen make the jump to F1 who I think would have been top notch and they were Dan Wheldon, Dario Franchitti and Scott Dixon. I would like to see Josef Newgarden come to F1 at some point too as he is a top talent.
But heading back to the Mansell point, many F1 guys have raced in CART with the odd win or podiums in the US but none have gone there and won the title without having considerable years in the US before winning. Barrichello is a good modern example of an F1 driver who went to the states full time. He finished 12th in the championship and only made the top 6 twice. Mansell won the championship.
But you get the point, I was being vague for a reason I obviously knew those rather statto type facts, the point is Nigel set a bit of a precedent, one that had not really been touched since Mario in the 70's.
Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
LukeBrown66 said:
But you get the point, I was being vague for a reason I obviously knew those rather statto type facts, the point is Nigel set a bit of a precedent, one that had not really been touched since Mario in the 70's.
Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
Zanardi made his career in Europe, i first saw him driving in GT cars, where he was visibly better than anyone else. He went to CART after his first F1 stint.Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
jsf said:
LukeBrown66 said:
But you get the point, I was being vague for a reason I obviously knew those rather statto type facts, the point is Nigel set a bit of a precedent, one that had not really been touched since Mario in the 70's.
Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
Zanardi made his career in Europe, i first saw him driving in GT cars, where he was visibly better than anyone else. He went to CART after his first F1 stint.Zanardi had raced yes but only to a lower level in F1 for Lotus and Jordan and JPM had not raced really and both made their career in the USA in CART, that is the main point. Not minor spotter type points.
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