Nigel Mansell one of the Greats ?
Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
You know you've reached peak cool when you're hammering an F40 around Fiorano, in the wet, with your flat cap on and gold ID bracelet casually dangling off your wrist
I had the video of this on VHS as a kid, I must have watched it a hundred times over. At about the same time I wrote to him telling him how much of a fan I was, a week later a signed photo of him in the Ferrari F1 car arrived in the post. It’s framed and hung on my garage wall to this day. Always be my favourite driver.When he was racing, whilst I enjoyed the actual race craft, the plucky spirit "whatever it takes", & loved him winning, but I struggled to warm to the person: to me, it felt like he won, but the team lost, so a bit of a glory hunter. When he wasn't winning, he seemed too quick to throw the mud around. Subsequently, I've read the books, seen some interviews, &, although I've not met him, I know a number who have, & they speak very highly of him. Perhaps the racer & the human are different facets of the person, really, I guess that's not uncommon. Was he great, though? Not sure, he was among the greats at times, but I don't recall thinking "wow" when he drove, like I did with some others. There weren't the "how did he manage that overtake", or "how did he get that result, in that sh!t heap?!?". Freely confess, I may have missed them, though!
I thought he livened up every race, Hungary remains one of my favourites, but you couldn’t class him as an ATG.
There’s an old story about Chapman watching him in F2 qualifying, Mansell had borrowed the car which was regarded as barely race worthy. I can’t remember where he qualified, but Chapman signed him after that.
He’s a odd character and I crossed his path a few times as one of my kids went to school with his son, the boy was unpopular and Mansell was forever complaining to the head. My view was that he should’ve been focusing on his boys behaviour, but I’m far from perfect in the parenting dept.
There’s an old story about Chapman watching him in F2 qualifying, Mansell had borrowed the car which was regarded as barely race worthy. I can’t remember where he qualified, but Chapman signed him after that.
He’s a odd character and I crossed his path a few times as one of my kids went to school with his son, the boy was unpopular and Mansell was forever complaining to the head. My view was that he should’ve been focusing on his boys behaviour, but I’m far from perfect in the parenting dept.
I do think of Nige as being “right car - right time” rather like Hill (Damon) and Jensen. However none of them were journeyman drivers, definitely tier-two winning many races.
I think that it is always obvious when a Lewis, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Alonso, Stewart come along. I just hope that Max does not become “right guy - wrong car”, he is an obvious talent.
I can’t decide with Seb, he was definitely in the right car, at the right time for 4-hard-fought and consecutive WDCs, but seems to have struggled since losing that advantage
I think that it is always obvious when a Lewis, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Alonso, Stewart come along. I just hope that Max does not become “right guy - wrong car”, he is an obvious talent.
I can’t decide with Seb, he was definitely in the right car, at the right time for 4-hard-fought and consecutive WDCs, but seems to have struggled since losing that advantage
I was at Brands in 1986. His diff blew on the first start. Jacque Laffite had a horrendous career ending accident. The race was stopped on the first lap. The T car (remember them?) was set up for Piquet for that race. The mechanics basically chucked Mansell’s seat in and made what adjusts they could. I think he beat Piquet by over 5 seconds.
I Was standing at Stowe in 1987 when he chased Piquet down and passed into the corner. The whole place went up!
When Nigel was on it, he was up there with the very best, a true racer. I would have put money on him against anyone in the same car. But he did suffer from “If I win, it’s me, if I lose it’s the car” syndrome.
Off topic but the first medic at Laffite’s accident was Dr Jonathan Palmer, who got out of his Zackspeed and gave first treatment.
I Was standing at Stowe in 1987 when he chased Piquet down and passed into the corner. The whole place went up!
When Nigel was on it, he was up there with the very best, a true racer. I would have put money on him against anyone in the same car. But he did suffer from “If I win, it’s me, if I lose it’s the car” syndrome.
Off topic but the first medic at Laffite’s accident was Dr Jonathan Palmer, who got out of his Zackspeed and gave first treatment.
Edited by Mr Dendrite on Saturday 1st August 11:22
Somehow seems like yesterday, was right opposite when Jacque has his accident, last GP at Brands Hatch, remember trawling down from Shropshire and camping for the W/E, never been back since Foulston took over. Remember Mansell in the Mondeo at Donnington BTCC meeting, probably best to forget that one! As said can’t knock a block for consecutive championships on opposite side of the pond
Great driver, and I saw him win his first GP and was also at Stowe in 87 -one of the most thrilling moments I've experienced at a race circuit -pumped up home crowd, assertive move over panto villain Piquet .
But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
Edited by coppice on Saturday 1st August 18:47
coppice said:
Great driver, and I saw him win his first GP and was also at Stowe in 87 -one of the most thrilling moments I've experienced at a race circuit -pumped up home crowd, assertive move over panto villain Piquet .
But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
There was a bit of a tiff at the police station I was at between a chap in the Special Constabulary and a regular. I was told to 'sort it out' by the chief inspector personnel whose job it was to sort it out, but had no idea how to go about it. So I wrote to Mansell and asked him for a picture of him in his Specials uniform. But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
Edited by coppice on Saturday 1st August 18:47
I received a 10 x 8 colour photograph, signed by him, in a mount. Also, there was a hand-written letter from him. It wasn't just PR and addressed the point of my request. He'd obviously given it some thought. I put it up in my office, from where it was stolen less than a week later, but it did the job.
I saw his first win at Brands, Piquet unable to build enough of a gap to stop the Mansell Charge from beating him in the undercut. A boring race, apart from the winner. I was at Silverstone for '87 and that was a thrilling race, I think the most exciting I've seen live, but again it was two cars leaving the rest for dust. I thoroughly enjoyed his driving and, although I heard all the moans, and the acting, it didn't put me off my enjoyment of his driving. (I can't understand any F1 fan disliking any thrilling driver enough to criticise his 'manner' after a thrilling drive.)
When Mansell said that he was getting inferior engines to Piquet from Honda I, like any right-thinking fan, knew full well that a major manufacturer would not put out a lower-powered engine just to ensure their choice won the WDC. When they admitted to changing the engine characteristics to suit the 'needs' of the driver, I was embarrassed. The impossible had happened in F1.
A dirty trick from Honda, exacerbated by the fact that they maintained the lie for so long. A friend of mine kept a record of top speeds of the two cars at various races and despite being confronted by the figures, I refused to believe his engine lacked power and that it must be some sort of failure on Mansell's behalf, you know, not pressing hard enough on the throttle pedal.
I was at the Formula One Paddock Club one Saturday at Silverstone. I stayed until the death, wandering around the village. I saw Mansell ride into the area between the tents on a monkey bike with a helmet over his arm. He said he'd run any kid around the infield. He asked for no photographs. He happily pottered around, talking easily to the parents, chatting to the kids. It was a small move, but too big for any other driver.
I went to his museum/collection in Jersey. I mentioned to the young woman giving the tickets that I'd seen him in a number of races, including his first win and the '87 British. She was over the Moon, and asked what it was like to see all the great drivers of the era, and how he compared. I told her of his qualifying lap at Silverstone, in the normally-aspirated Williams Judd when he beat a number of the turbo-charged monsters, some driven by the 'greats' she was talking about. I thought at the time that he was the only driver not to be freaked out by Senna's mind games. I was at Brands, probably '86 I think, his first win, when they put a speed trap on the pit straight. There was a battle between the drivers to get the highest total. Senna and Mansell were the ones left and Senna went through the trap and had a great deal of difficulty getting around Paddock. Everyone wanted Mansell to have another go and he played to the grandstand (this was Saturday, I was in with the plebs on race day). We started clapping, and when Mansell put on his helmet, there were cheers all around the stadium. He came through once quite fast, but without trying, just to raise the temperature, and the next lap the cheers that started at the time went up turned to groans as he struggled to get the Williams around Paddock. He was all over the road, although an old boy in front of us reckoned it was a bit of acting on his behalf. Whatever, it was brilliant car control on the limit.
Not an all time great. But one of the greatest entertainers in a race. He's had more people standing in stands, groaning and cheering - his qually lap in the Williams-Judd had all, regardless of allegiance, the crowd where I was standing, Club, cheering and applauding from his approach to the bend to the time it came up on the screen. And then we went wild (there was a small group of Ferrari supporters who, evidently, didn't react, and they were picked on, with lots of humour, to the extent that they walked off).
I think F1 racing is about memories, and a lot of mine include Mansell, despite me not being a particular fan of his.
His accent seemed to be the thing that a lot of people criticised. Why?
He increased the enjoyment of most races he drove in. His style reminded me of Hill Snr, but without the posh accent or sense of humour. Where he differed was in his attitude.
Very good summary and lovely anecdotes . I may have reservations about Mansell the man , but like you , some of my best moments at Grands Prix came from Il Leone .
On the speed trap thing . I recall him doing a similar thing in the Lotus-Renault turbos in 1984 , with Mansell and De Angelis trading v maxes in practice . I bet 177mph concentrated Mansell's mind when Paddock Hill was only a few heartbeats away....Inevitably , our Nige ended up the quicker .
God how I loved turbo F1 and Brands - still the best thing I have ever seen .
On the speed trap thing . I recall him doing a similar thing in the Lotus-Renault turbos in 1984 , with Mansell and De Angelis trading v maxes in practice . I bet 177mph concentrated Mansell's mind when Paddock Hill was only a few heartbeats away....Inevitably , our Nige ended up the quicker .
God how I loved turbo F1 and Brands - still the best thing I have ever seen .
Derek Smith said:
coppice said:
Great driver, and I saw him win his first GP and was also at Stowe in 87 -one of the most thrilling moments I've experienced at a race circuit -pumped up home crowd, assertive move over panto villain Piquet .
But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
...I told her of his qualifying lap at Silverstone, in the normally-aspirated Williams Judd when he beat a number of the turbo-charged monsters, some driven by the 'greats' she was talking about.But out of the cockpit, dear oh dear . Whingeing , paranoia boor , utterly lacking in charm . Listen to his last podcast for Motor Sport - self mythologising , humble bragging tosh . Then listen to Frank Dernie about him ....
But judge the art, not the artist - and he was , on his day, an unbeatable driver with great strength and aggression.
Edited by coppice on Saturday 1st August 18:47
...his qually lap in the Williams-Judd had all, regardless of allegiance, the crowd where I was standing, Club, cheering and applauding from his approach to the bend to the time it came up on the screen. And then we went wild (there was a small group of Ferrari supporters who,, didn't react, and they were picked on, with lots of humour, to the extent that they walked off.
I think F1 racing is about memories...
And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
dr_gn said:
1988 British Grand Prix? Why would Ferrari fans be pissed off - they qualified first and second?
And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
This was the most committed qually lap I've seen. He was second, obviously at that time. He came around Club just a little beyond any other driver's sensible limit. There was cheering at Stowe, and it continued along the stands, and then onto where we were. The commentary was giving sector times. We knew it was a great lap, and we were right.And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
That's how I remember it. The crew I was with talked about it for a few years after. If you remember it differently, then so be it. It was a long time ago, but this is the F1 thread. Accusing people of making up things is a bit NP&E.
Derek Smith said:
dr_gn said:
1988 British Grand Prix? Why would Ferrari fans be pissed off - they qualified first and second?
And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
This was the most committed qually lap I've seen. He was second, obviously at that time. He came around Club just a little beyond any other driver's sensible limit. There was cheering at Stowe, and it continued along the stands, and then onto where we were. The commentary was giving sector times. We knew it was a great lap, and we were right.And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
That's how I remember it. The crew I was with talked about it for a few years after. If you remember it differently, then so be it. It was a long time ago, but this is the F1 thread. Accusing people of making up things is a bit NP&E.
And you’re also saying that based on that irrelevant lap, people were goading Ferrari fans to the extent they had to leave, despite Ferrari subsequently qualifying 1st & 2nd?
There’s no wonder you’re still an F1 fan if stuff like that can get you all worked up.
Derek Smith said:
dr_gn said:
1988 British Grand Prix? Why would Ferrari fans be pissed off - they qualified first and second?
And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
This was the most committed qually lap I've seen. He was second, obviously at that time. He came around Club just a little beyond any other driver's sensible limit. There was cheering at Stowe, and it continued along the stands, and then onto where we were. The commentary was giving sector times. We knew it was a great lap, and we were right.And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
That's how I remember it. The crew I was with talked about it for a few years after. If you remember it differently, then so be it. It was a long time ago, but this is the F1 thread. Accusing people of making up things is a bit NP&E.
markcoznottz said:
Derek Smith said:
dr_gn said:
1988 British Grand Prix? Why would Ferrari fans be pissed off - they qualified first and second?
And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
This was the most committed qually lap I've seen. He was second, obviously at that time. He came around Club just a little beyond any other driver's sensible limit. There was cheering at Stowe, and it continued along the stands, and then onto where we were. The commentary was giving sector times. We knew it was a great lap, and we were right.And what was so great about Mansell’s performance? I was there, and remember nothing of the crowd going wild - he only qualified 11th after all. As for beating turbo car monsters and the ‘greats’ driving them: Cheever in an Arrows, Larini’s decrepit Osella and the hopeless Zakspeeds? He wasn’t even the fastest atmo car - Guglemin and Capelli in their March-Judds locked out the third row.
The race however was where Mansell came alive: He beat the lot of them apart from Senna, and in car that had been converted from reactive to passive suspension on the Friday evening. It was, frankly, amazing.
As you say, F1 is about memories, but let’s not make them up.
That's how I remember it. The crew I was with talked about it for a few years after. If you remember it differently, then so be it. It was a long time ago, but this is the F1 thread. Accusing people of making up things is a bit NP&E.
dr_gn said:
So let me get this right: When you said his “qualifying lap”, you were actually talking about a random lap in the middle of qualifying, which meant absolutely nothing in terms of grid position, rather than his fastest lap - the one that eventually put him 11th on the grid?
And you’re also saying that based on that irrelevant lap, people were goading Ferrari fans to the extent they had to leave, despite Ferrari subsequently qualifying 1st & 2nd?
There’s no wonder you’re still an F1 fan if stuff like that can get you all worked up.
Heaven forfend someone should actually admit to having great memories of being at a Grand Prix eh ? Having been to many GPs since 71 I've witnessed countless examples of crowd excitement at many points over a weekend , including when the local hero sets a good time early on in practice, They might be 'random laps 'in your very dismissive terms but they are pretty damn exciting when you are there , believe it . And you’re also saying that based on that irrelevant lap, people were goading Ferrari fans to the extent they had to leave, despite Ferrari subsequently qualifying 1st & 2nd?
There’s no wonder you’re still an F1 fan if stuff like that can get you all worked up.
coppice said:
dr_gn said:
So let me get this right: When you said his “qualifying lap”, you were actually talking about a random lap in the middle of qualifying, which meant absolutely nothing in terms of grid position, rather than his fastest lap - the one that eventually put him 11th on the grid?
And you’re also saying that based on that irrelevant lap, people were goading Ferrari fans to the extent they had to leave, despite Ferrari subsequently qualifying 1st & 2nd?
There’s no wonder you’re still an F1 fan if stuff like that can get you all worked up.
Having been to many GPs since 71... And you’re also saying that based on that irrelevant lap, people were goading Ferrari fans to the extent they had to leave, despite Ferrari subsequently qualifying 1st & 2nd?
There’s no wonder you’re still an F1 fan if stuff like that can get you all worked up.
Edited by dr_gn on Monday 3rd August 08:43
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