Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?
Discussion
kiseca said:
nickfrog said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I still feel being beaten by Rosberg drops him down a touch,
Did you watch Sepang 2016 ? It gives a very good indication as to how Rosberg "beat" Hamilton that year.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XT6n4OuSY
Unless the car stops, we often have no idea what problems a driver is facing in the car that may be just making them look slow compared to their team mate. Cracked chassis that have seen half a dozen races before being discovered. A soft brake pedal. Can't select 3rd gear. Has a bad cold.
Dig deep enough and you can make any fantasy or "deserving" winner you like for just about any season. What you can't do is change the fact that in 2016 Rosberg BEAT Hamilton in the championship race.
At the end of the day Rosberg won fair and square. I thought Hamilton was hard done by, particularly with the engine failure, but that's racing.
Muzzer79 said:
kiseca said:
nickfrog said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I still feel being beaten by Rosberg drops him down a touch,
Did you watch Sepang 2016 ? It gives a very good indication as to how Rosberg "beat" Hamilton that year.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XT6n4OuSY
Unless the car stops, we often have no idea what problems a driver is facing in the car that may be just making them look slow compared to their team mate. Cracked chassis that have seen half a dozen races before being discovered. A soft brake pedal. Can't select 3rd gear. Has a bad cold.
Dig deep enough and you can make any fantasy or "deserving" winner you like for just about any season. What you can't do is change the fact that in 2016 Rosberg BEAT Hamilton in the championship race.
At the end of the day Rosberg won fair and square. I thought Hamilton was hard done by, particularly with the engine failure, but that's racing.
The only observation I ever make about 2016 is that it was hardly a commanding victory for Rosberg, and as such he was highly at risk of history going the other direction if luck had been slightly different.
I'm sure that in a reflective moment Rosberg himself would be forced to agree that to feel truly victorious, in a sport where luck does frequently impact race results and points to a significant degree, winning by just 5 points is not a slam dunk. Neither driver is fully in control of their luck each season, and a single small additional piece of bad luck on Rosberg's side or good luck on Lewis's side would have swung the title. That said, maybe at some point in his career Rosberg just lost out by a similar slim margin to somebody else? Play the game for long enough and luck does eventually level out.
Muzzer79 said:
Much as Hamilton had the worse reliability in 2016, motorsport is full of 'Sliding Doors' moments.
At the end of the day Rosberg won fair and square. I thought Hamilton was hard done by, particularly with the engine failure, but that's racing.
Yep, completely agree. History is littered with coulda/shoulda moments. At the end of the day Rosberg won fair and square. I thought Hamilton was hard done by, particularly with the engine failure, but that's racing.
Rosberg's triumph in 2016 was well deserved but it doesn't really diminish my respect for Hamilton very much. Rosberg threw everything that he had into that 2016 campaign, an effort that he simply could not sustain by his own retrospective admission. Ham has delivered performance and focus at that level his entire career. It's other worldly.
kiseca said:
nickfrog said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I still feel being beaten by Rosberg drops him down a touch,
Did you watch Sepang 2016 ? It gives a very good indication as to how Rosberg "beat" Hamilton that year.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XT6n4OuSY
Unless the car stops, we often have no idea what problems a driver is facing in the car that may be just making them look slow compared to their team mate. Cracked chassis that have seen half a dozen races before being discovered. A soft brake pedal. Can't select 3rd gear. Has a bad cold.
Dig deep enough and you can make any fantasy or "deserving" winner you like for just about any season. What you can't do is change the fact that in 2016 Rosberg BEAT Hamilton in the championship race.
... the fact remains that Rosberg had no technical DNF in 2016 and Hamilton had one. This was the difference between winning and losing.
...the fact remains that Hamilton didn't need Rosberg to have one more technical DNF than him to beat him the other years.
That doesn't take anything away from Rosberg's performance in 2016. Just a shame he decided to quit right after that.
TheDeuce said:
I'm sure that in a reflective moment Rosberg himself would be forced to agree that to feel truly victorious, in a sport where luck does frequently impact race results and points to a significant degree, winning by just 5 points is not a slam dunk. Neither driver is fully in control of their luck each season, and a single small additional piece of bad luck on Rosberg's side or good luck on Lewis's side would have swung the title. That said, maybe at some point in his career Rosberg just lost out by a similar slim margin to somebody else? Play the game for long enough and luck does eventually level out.
I agree, at least from our perspective, it was a close thing and one small incident could have swung it the other way.I am not sure Rosberg would see it that way though. I think he'd give the winning is winning speech, point to - as you say in the second part - a dozen examples where bad luck took a win away from him and possibly a championship. That will be his perspective. And he'll be very happy that all the incredibly hard work, effort and stress he put in to that one season where he beat the best driver in the world. I don't think he'll see it as lucky so much as an achievement he can be very proud of particularly because of the quality of his opponent.
Edited by kiseca on Thursday 19th November 11:19
It all boils down to what is most important in your life at the end of the day. Rosberg has a young family, Hamilton doesn't. It takes a lot of sacrifices to perform at the level Rosberg was and Hamilton is and Rosberg simply chose a different priority.
Any elite sports person has to sacrifice any sort of normal life to be at the top and to be at the very top require sacrifices that many just simple aren't prepared to make. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a very long debate with no right or wrong answer.
Hamilton is definitely the best of his era when you take into account every attribute needed to be number one in the modern F1 world. Comparisons outside of his era are pointless.
Any elite sports person has to sacrifice any sort of normal life to be at the top and to be at the very top require sacrifices that many just simple aren't prepared to make. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a very long debate with no right or wrong answer.
Hamilton is definitely the best of his era when you take into account every attribute needed to be number one in the modern F1 world. Comparisons outside of his era are pointless.
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
I'm sure that in a reflective moment Rosberg himself would be forced to agree that to feel truly victorious, in a sport where luck does frequently impact race results and points to a significant degree, winning by just 5 points is not a slam dunk. Neither driver is fully in control of their luck each season, and a single small additional piece of bad luck on Rosberg's side or good luck on Lewis's side would have swung the title. That said, maybe at some point in his career Rosberg just lost out by a similar slim margin to somebody else? Play the game for long enough and luck does eventually level out.
I agree, at least from our perspective, it was a close thing and one small incident could have swung it the other way.I am not sure Rosberg would see it that way though. I think he'd give the winning is winning speech, point to - as you say in the second part - a dozen examples where bad luck took a win away from him and possibly a championship. That will be his perspective. And he'll be very happy that all the incredibly hard work, effort and stress he put in to that one season where he beat the best driver in the world. I don't think he'll see it as lucky so much as an achievement he can be very proud of particularly because of the quality of his opponent.
And yes, getting to within beating distance of LH over the length of a season is clearly no mean feat, regardless of whether he just got it over the line or just missed out. A fantastic and very determined effort, during which he made some pretty significant personal sacrifices too. He may have only just clinched it but it was certainly on merit to be within clinching distance in the first place.
Lewis must on some level have a lot of respect for how hard Rosberg fought.
TheDeuce said:
Lewis must on some level have a lot of respect for how hard Rosberg fought.
Agree. Nico got the rub of the green, but he did an amazing jon in 2016.What I do believe, firmly, is that Hamilton was a changed man and driver after that, and would have never allowed that to happen again. Nico knew that and did the sensible thing!
paulguitar said:
TheDeuce said:
Lewis must on some level have a lot of respect for how hard Rosberg fought.
Agree. Nico got the rub of the green, but he did an amazing jon in 2016.What I do believe, firmly, is that Hamilton was a changed man and driver after that, and would have never allowed that to happen again. Nico knew that and did the sensible thing!
If it takes over a years run up to get the job done for just one year, and you also let slip the rest of what matters in your life, it's simply not a repeatable effort year on year.. I think as such, he did the right thing at the right time. Seems very happy and stimulated by his current life and happy relationship with F1.
TheDeuce said:
I did almost contradict myself at the end of what I wrote - and indeed Rosberg may be able to point to other occasions where he just lost out due to luck.
And yes, getting to within beating distance of LH over the length of a season is clearly no mean feat, regardless of whether he just got it over the line or just missed out. A fantastic and very determined effort, during which he made some pretty significant personal sacrifices too. He may have only just clinched it but it was certainly on merit to be within clinching distance in the first place.
Lewis must on some level have a lot of respect for how hard Rosberg fought.
Yes I would agree. I think Lewis understands what it took out of Rosberg to win that year, and for me the fact that he won is both a testament to his own achievement as well as an acknowledgement of the strength of the guy that he beat. And I think that relative feeling, that even in 2016 Lewis was the better driver, does tend to colour how we see those championships. As I've just admitted it colours mine - I put more value on Nico's achievement because it was Lewis he beat than I would have had if he'd beaten Seb, for instance, and in different cars.And yes, getting to within beating distance of LH over the length of a season is clearly no mean feat, regardless of whether he just got it over the line or just missed out. A fantastic and very determined effort, during which he made some pretty significant personal sacrifices too. He may have only just clinched it but it was certainly on merit to be within clinching distance in the first place.
Lewis must on some level have a lot of respect for how hard Rosberg fought.
But I think that often swings the other way too. For example, and this isn't aimed at you because you've never implied something like this, but aimed more in general... I don't see many people jumping at the opportunity to take Lauda's 1984 championship away from him and give it to Prost, even though he won it by just half a point, and that the Monaco race awarded only half points because it was stopped early due to the rain. Even if Senna had won and Prost had come second, that race would have been enough to give him the championship. But on here, Prost isn't as highly regarded as Lauda so I hardly ever see the records of both drivers challenged. And that is as it should be. The race was stopped at a reasonable time for reasonable concerns. The points awarded were within the rules. Lauda threw a lot into his comeback, in terms of fitness and preparation, and in 1984 he used all of his experience and skill to beat a faster guy in an equal car - and teach Prost a thing or two that he applied for success in his future career too.
However, I'm quite sure if the result had been reversed however, and Prost had won that championship, his worthiness of that title would be questioned from time to time as Rosberg's is. I'm also quite sure that none but 3 people on here (and I'm pretty sure two of those are actually the same guy) would even mention 2016 if Rosberg lost it due to one engine failure instead of Hamilton.
As said already, it’s very much swings and roundabouts and it evens it’s self out over time.
That’s why it’s so valued to have won several WDC over a long time.
Lauda and Prost certainly did that with all their ups and downs.
Rosberg put up a good fight for a few years and probably deserved his WDC but couldn’t keep it up over the long term.
If Lewis hadn’t joined Mercedes, there’s a very good chance he might have won 7 on the trot.
ITMA !!
Max is probably thinking the same.
That’s why it’s so valued to have won several WDC over a long time.
Lauda and Prost certainly did that with all their ups and downs.
Rosberg put up a good fight for a few years and probably deserved his WDC but couldn’t keep it up over the long term.
If Lewis hadn’t joined Mercedes, there’s a very good chance he might have won 7 on the trot.
ITMA !!
Max is probably thinking the same.
TheDeuce said:
Lewis did seem to step up a notch after that. I think Rosberg was done regardless though, he was a hollow shell of a man after pulling off the title win! In his own words, he had to sacrifice parts of his life he craved for and had neglected for over a year to get the job done, all the mental coaching to keep his mind focussed and shut out doubt. He avoided going home in order to remain focussed...
If it takes over a years run up to get the job done for just one year, and you also let slip the rest of what matters in your life, it's simply not a repeatable effort year on year.. I think as such, he did the right thing at the right time. Seems very happy and stimulated by his current life and happy relationship with F1.
What I would like to know is why Lauda said that the team had done everything possible for Rosberg to win that year after Rosberg left. What did he mean as he looked annoyed when he said that. If it takes over a years run up to get the job done for just one year, and you also let slip the rest of what matters in your life, it's simply not a repeatable effort year on year.. I think as such, he did the right thing at the right time. Seems very happy and stimulated by his current life and happy relationship with F1.
M5-911 said:
TheDeuce said:
Lewis did seem to step up a notch after that. I think Rosberg was done regardless though, he was a hollow shell of a man after pulling off the title win! In his own words, he had to sacrifice parts of his life he craved for and had neglected for over a year to get the job done, all the mental coaching to keep his mind focussed and shut out doubt. He avoided going home in order to remain focussed...
If it takes over a years run up to get the job done for just one year, and you also let slip the rest of what matters in your life, it's simply not a repeatable effort year on year.. I think as such, he did the right thing at the right time. Seems very happy and stimulated by his current life and happy relationship with F1.
What I would like to know is why Lauda said that the team had done everything possible for Rosberg to win that year after Rosberg left. What did he mean as he looked annoyed when he said that. If it takes over a years run up to get the job done for just one year, and you also let slip the rest of what matters in your life, it's simply not a repeatable effort year on year.. I think as such, he did the right thing at the right time. Seems very happy and stimulated by his current life and happy relationship with F1.
I don't think Niki was all that impressed by one hit wonders.. after all, he came back after a VERY tricky season to win again
M5-911 said:
What I would like to know is why Lauda said that the team had done everything possible for Rosberg to win that year after Rosberg left. What did he mean as he looked annoyed when he said that.
I suspect he was referring primarily to the crew swaps at the end of the 2015 season. Whilst it mitigated Rosbergs perception of a Hamilton biase, it unsettled Hamilton to a degree. I expect Lauda saw that as more than a one season payback, & wanted to see them fight it out for another championship. He may even have felt the crew swap wasn't merited in the first place.MarkwG said:
I suspect he was referring primarily to the crew swaps at the end of the 2015 season. Whilst it mitigated Rosbergs perception of a Hamilton biase, it unsettled Hamilton to a degree. I expect Lauda saw that as more than a one season payback, & wanted to see them fight it out for another championship. He may even have felt the crew swap wasn't merited in the first place.
Yes, Hamilton mentioned as well that one day he will tell exactly what's happen that year behind the scene. He was very bitter about it. Not in a way of someone loosing a championship but like being cheated. Politics... Paddy Lowe enters the GOAT debate with surprising logic and clarity: https://motorsport.tv/embed/GtIzUk09-has-hamilton-...
Makes some good points, namely that best drivers are in the best cars in the first place for a reason, and that whilst the car often gets the job done, on occasion it truly is down to the driver to find a result. There are times at which it's more driver than car, and a driver has to be good on those occasions if they wish to rack up 7 (8..) WDC's.
He certainly speaks with more intelligence than the average Lewis detractor manages on these boards
Makes some good points, namely that best drivers are in the best cars in the first place for a reason, and that whilst the car often gets the job done, on occasion it truly is down to the driver to find a result. There are times at which it's more driver than car, and a driver has to be good on those occasions if they wish to rack up 7 (8..) WDC's.
He certainly speaks with more intelligence than the average Lewis detractor manages on these boards
Taz46 said:
Any one else agree with me that Lewis has the ability to be regarded as the greatest of all time? Seems to me he can get the car near or on the front regardless whether the cars 100 % (with the exception of the beginning of last year but let's face it the mclaren was a complete dog of a car) most talented driver on the grid my opinion, what's yours!?
Absolutely spot on. He is the GOAT, he didn't cheat a championship ala Schumacker either. Why do we always shoot down our own heroes? I don't get it. S,Vettel's recent comments don't go down well either. LH44 beat you, get over it. Edited by macdeb on Wednesday 25th November 17:13
Edited by macdeb on Wednesday 25th November 17:14
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