Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

[anonymous-user]

vdn said:

Jim chooses 'facts' (that are actually opinions) as his base for any debate. When presented with actual facts he runs a mile and ignores them. Like when he said that all the teams and staff voted Hamilton best driver 'just because he won' which is utter rubbish and when presented with the fact that they voted for him even when Rosberg won ... he runs for the hills. Jim that is, not Rosberg. Although Rosberg did also run for the hills

What's that they say about arguing with idiots?

Runs for the hills?

But he still won the Championship.

Funny the crews were changed before the start of the 2016 season and Rosberg won.

Very interesting. Maybe Bottas should ask for the same.

[Muzzer79]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Muzzer79 said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Muzzer79 said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Button showed he was more than a match for Hamilton over three seasons.
.

Evidenced by him beating Hamilton in the championship in each of those seasons......oh wait.....

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Facts mate

Indeed.

2/1 Hamilton by 2 points in the final season and you are arguing.

Well, yes. Because you’re quoting ‘facts’ in the same post as saying Button was more than a match for Hamilton

Had that been the case, he’d have beaten him in the championship each year or even just simply won more races. But he didn’t.....which is a fact.

Do you need a crayon drawing to understand this?

Edited by Muzzer79 on Saturday 3rd April 19:32

What a bizarre response.

Button lost out to Hamilton by 2 points in their final season and over the three seasons they were together he outscored Hamilton.

So he was more than a match.

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

[angrymoby]

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

[vdn]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

vdn said:

Jim chooses 'facts' (that are actually opinions) as his base for any debate. When presented with actual facts he runs a mile and ignores them. Like when he said that all the teams and staff voted Hamilton best driver 'just because he won' which is utter rubbish and when presented with the fact that they voted for him even when Rosberg won ... he runs for the hills. Jim that is, not Rosberg. Although Rosberg did also run for the hills

What's that they say about arguing with idiots?

Runs for the hills?

But he still won the Championship.

Funny the crews were changed before the start of the 2016 season and Rosberg won.

Very interesting. Maybe Bottas should ask for the same.

Yes, Button is the better driver. Of course he is. Still swerved the point on team bosses ey?

Like I said... arguing with idiots

[HighwayStar]

vdn said:

Yes, Button is the better driver. Of course he is. Still swerved the point on team bosses ey?

Like I said... arguing with idiots

I pointed out the team bosses still went with Hamilton in 2016 when Rosberg got it done. Oh he did reply, with his usual bravado. Basically blagging what he can’t justify... leaning on flimsiest of excuses and then moving because acknowledging that the teams know what they’re talking about invalids the position he holds in this thread.

——————————————————

ELUSIVEJIM said:

WickerBill said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

No one is disputing Russell is highly likely to be a better driver than Bottas but... how have Mercedes dropped the ball with the success the team could’ve had?
Re if Toto was in charge.... do you think he’d have put a gun to Hamilton’s head or something. It’s negotiations, compromising reaching an understanding. Not dictating. Some drivers hold quite a bit of power as others at the top of their game in other sports.
Don’t forget the drivers and TPs vote Hamilton the seasons best driver. I respect their view more than yours and a few others who just basically winge.
You’ve been quiet for sometime, what brought you out in full attack mode? What’s Hamilton, the greatest, most successful driver ever, done to upset you?

Edited by HighwayStar on Friday 2nd April 12:52

Who else are they going to vote as the driver of the year if not the Champion?

2016?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formula-1-team-b...

Seems Jim is conveniently ignoring this....oh dear

It's not hard to guess who Toto voted for in that poll. Most of the others wanted to keep their Mercedes engines for 2017

Rosberg will never be remembered as a great so it's not a surprise.

[vdn]

HighwayStar said:

vdn said:

Yes, Button is the better driver. Of course he is. Still swerved the point on team bosses ey?

Like I said... arguing with idiots

I pointed out the team bosses still went with Hamilton in 2016 when Rosberg got it done. Oh he did reply, with his usual bravado. Basically blagging what he can’t justify... leaning on flimsiest of excuses and then moving because acknowledging that the teams know what they’re talking about invalids the position he holds in this thread.

——————————————————

ELUSIVEJIM said:

WickerBill said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

No one is disputing Russell is highly likely to be a better driver than Bottas but... how have Mercedes dropped the ball with the success the team could’ve had?
Re if Toto was in charge.... do you think he’d have put a gun to Hamilton’s head or something. It’s negotiations, compromising reaching an understanding. Not dictating. Some drivers hold quite a bit of power as others at the top of their game in other sports.
Don’t forget the drivers and TPs vote Hamilton the seasons best driver. I respect their view more than yours and a few others who just basically winge.
You’ve been quiet for sometime, what brought you out in full attack mode? What’s Hamilton, the greatest, most successful driver ever, done to upset you?

Edited by HighwayStar on Friday 2nd April 12:52

Who else are they going to vote as the driver of the year if not the Champion?

2016?
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/formula-1-team-b...

Seems Jim is conveniently ignoring this....oh dear

It's not hard to guess who Toto voted for in that poll. Most of the others wanted to keep their Mercedes engines for 2017

Rosberg will never be remembered as a great so it's not a surprise.

Ah! So he has addressed it. In typical idiotic fashion, as you say

[ZX10R NIN]

I rate Hamilton & I'm happy to call him the most successful of all time but not the GOAT & that's mainly because he hasn't had any real challengers (none of which is his fault) even now we're talking up Redbull more in hope than reality as we know they won't be able sustain a challenge (they'll do better than Ferrari) because those Honda's have got at least 2 DNF's written all over them.

Someone like Rossi can be regarded as a GOAT because of his epic (even if it was his own teamate) battles over the seasons & because he's clearly not been on the best bike all season & won the championship.

https://www.facebook.com/BMWMotorcycleScene/videos...

[M5-911]

ZX10R NIN said:

I rate Hamilton & I'm happy to call him the most successful of all time but not the GOAT & that's mainly because he hasn't had any real challengers (none of which is his fault) even now we're talking up Redbull more in hope than reality as we know they won't be able sustain a challenge (they'll do better than Ferrari) because those Honda's have got at least 2 DNF's written all over them.

Someone like Rossi can be regarded as a GOAT because of his epic (even if it was his own teamate) battles over the seasons & because he's clearly not been on the best bike all season & won the championship.

https://www.facebook.com/BMWMotorcycleScene/videos...

So Hamilton had 3 World champions (beat them all) along side him plus finished ahead of the faster Ferrari in two seasons but you say he never had a challenge?

[ZX10R NIN]

M5-911 said:

So Hamilton had 3 World champions (beat them all) along side him plus finished ahead of the faster Ferrari in two seasons but you say he never had a challenge?

Not a consistent one, you can't say Ferrari have been a consistent threat through any season, on paper maybe but not in reality.

I judge Rossi as a GOAT not because of the past champions (& there were more than three of those) he beat but also for the future champions.

As I said for me not quite Goat status but that's just me if you want to call him a GOAT go ahead I have no problem with it, he hasn't got there for me.

Now if he & Verstappen go properly toe to toe all season then that'll make a significant difference but I expect the Redbull effort to falter.

[C350Akra]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I presume you shine Hamilton's helmet for him as well?

What a child you are, losing the debate so you resort to insults.

[HighwayStar]

C350Akra said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I presume you shine Hamilton's helmet for him as well?

What a child you are, losing the debate so you resort to insults.

Exactly... from a guy who moaned others had got personal.

[M5-911]

ZX10R NIN said:

Not a consistent one, you can't say Ferrari have been a consistent threat through any season, on paper maybe but not in reality.

I judge Rossi as a GOAT not because of the past champions (& there were more than three of those) he beat but also for the future champions.

As I said for me not quite Goat status but that's just me if you want to call him a GOAT go ahead I have no problem with it, he hasn't got there for me.

Now if he & Verstappen go properly toe to toe all season then that'll make a significant difference but I expect the Redbull effort to falter.

Verstapen will not make any difference I think on the GOAT statue. Alonso was a lot better than Verstapen when in equal machinery with Hamilton and he was already a 2 time world champion. Verstapen is more than 10 years younger than Hamilton and in all honesty, it would be a shame for Verstapen to not beat Hamilton in a car equal or faster.

Rossi has been destroyed for years now by younger riders where Hamilton hasn't. I enjoy Rossi and he is the most amazing rider ever to my eyes but your comparaison to Hamilton doesn't add up.

[ZX10R NIN]

M5-911 said:

Verstapen will not make any difference I think on the GOAT statue. Alonso was a lot better than Verstapen when in equal machinery with Hamilton and he was already a 2 time world champion. Verstapen is more than 10 years younger than Hamilton and in all honesty, it would be a shame for Verstapen to not beat Hamilton in a car equal or faster.

Rossi has been destroyed for years now by younger riders where Hamilton hasn't. I enjoy Rossi and he is the most amazing rider ever to my eyes but your comparaison to Hamilton doesn't add up.

Verstapen will make a difference to me, I agree Rossi has been done for a while now (he should drop down to WSB) also I'm using Rossi as a reference not a comparison different era's/machinery etc. I'm using Rossi as an example of what I consider GOAT status.

You don't have to agree would you consider Jonny Rea the GOAT WSBK rider? He's had proper competition & laid waste to all comers as well as having consistent competition through the whole of the seasons.

The Bautista season was unbelievable & cemented his GOAT status for me, as I said it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree & I enjoy the debate.

[MiniMan64]

ZX10R NIN said:

I rate Hamilton & I'm happy to call him the most successful of all time but not the GOAT & that's mainly because he hasn't had any real challengers (none of which is his fault) even now we're talking up Redbull more in hope than reality as we know they won't be able sustain a challenge (they'll do better than Ferrari) because those Honda's have got at least 2 DNF's written all over them.

Someone like Rossi can be regarded as a GOAT because of his epic (even if it was his own teamate) battles over the seasons & because he's clearly not been on the best bike all season & won the championship.

https://www.facebook.com/BMWMotorcycleScene/videos...

Isn’t this a bit of a circular argument?

You might say he hasn’t had any real challengers but what constitutes a challenger? Someone who can beat him? Plenty have managed it but not regularly. But maybe no ones managed it because he’s that much better, he’s the GOAT.

I’d argue he’s had plenty of challengers and put them all down one way or another. You don’t see them as challengers because they weren’t his equal but when you’re the GOAT you don’t have equals, just a long list of challengers who have fallen by the way side.

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

[anonymous-user]

C350Akra said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I presume you shine Hamilton's helmet for him as well?

What a child you are, losing the debate so you resort to insults.

That's an insult?

[anonymous-user]

ZX10R NIN said:

M5-911 said:

Verstapen will not make any difference I think on the GOAT statue. Alonso was a lot better than Verstapen when in equal machinery with Hamilton and he was already a 2 time world champion. Verstapen is more than 10 years younger than Hamilton and in all honesty, it would be a shame for Verstapen to not beat Hamilton in a car equal or faster.

Rossi has been destroyed for years now by younger riders where Hamilton hasn't. I enjoy Rossi and he is the most amazing rider ever to my eyes but your comparaison to Hamilton doesn't add up.

Verstapen will make a difference to me, I agree Rossi has been done for a while now (he should drop down to WSB) also I'm using Rossi as a reference not a comparison different era's/machinery etc. I'm using Rossi as an example of what I consider GOAT status.

You don't have to agree would you consider Jonny Rea the GOAT WSBK rider? He's had proper competition & laid waste to all comers as well as having consistent competition through the whole of the seasons.

The Bautista season was unbelievable & cemented his GOAT status for me, as I said it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree & I enjoy the debate.

I would not use bike terminology as they will never understand.

Moto GP has always been very close. Rossi has had to battle extremely talented teammates.

[MarkwG]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

- that quote alone shows how little you actually know. It's almost as if you weren't even watching at the time.

[Mr_Thyroid]

angrymoby said:

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate)

Are you using the fact that Tarso Marquez finished higher in the championship in 2001, in a Minardi, when both car finished only three times and neither driver scored a point, as evidence that Alonso isn't cracked up to much?

[anonymous-user]

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

- that quote alone shows how little you actually know. It's almost as if you weren't even watching at the time.

I very much doubt any other driver would have won the Championship with Benetton in 1994 and 1995.

To prove this when Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 he tested the 1995 Ferrari and was two seconds faster than Alesi and Berger.

Schumacher at the time said the Ferrari was a great car and many stated if he had been driving it Ferrari would have won a Championship.

I am sure if Schumacher hadn't broken his leg in 1999 he would have finished his career as an 8 time Champion.

Yes, Schumacher had it easier when Ferrari finally got their act together but in 2003 the McLaren was more than a match.