Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

[MarkwG]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

- that quote alone shows how little you actually know. It's almost as if you weren't even watching at the time.

I very much doubt any other driver would have won the Championship with Benetton in 1994 and 1995.

To prove this when Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 he tested the 1995 Ferrari and was two seconds faster than Alesi and Berger.

Schumacher at the time said the Ferrari was a great car and many stated if he had been driving it Ferrari would have won a Championship.

I am sure if Schumacher hadn't broken his leg in 1999 he would have finished his career as an 8 time Champion.

Yes, Schumacher had it easier when Ferrari finally got their act together but in 2003 the McLaren was more than a match.

Since the 94 & 95 cars were built around Schumacher's driving style, & the team was built around him, you'd expect that to be the result. The fact that they needed to make sure the second driver was contracted as a number 2 & cheat as well doesn't really help your case. Ferrari didn't so much "get their act together": he took his team with him from Bennetton to Ferrari. Hamilton went from winning at Mclaren to a new team at Mercedes, & no "number 1" status in either. No one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation, but he contractually faced no competition from the other team driver, & rarely had to face off against any other World Champions. If he hadn't tried to punt Jacques Villeneuve off in '97 he might have had 8 championships... & if he hadn't punted Damon Hill off in '94, he might never have been WC at all...

[M5-911]

MarkwG said:

Since the 94 & 95 cars were built around Schumacher's driving style, & the team was built around him, you'd expect that to be the result. The fact that they needed to make sure the second driver was contracted as a number 2 & cheat as well doesn't really help your case. Ferrari didn't so much "get their act together": he took his team with him from Bennetton to Ferrari. Hamilton went from winning at Mclaren to a new team at Mercedes, & no "number 1" status in either. No one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation, but he contractually faced no competition from the other team driver, & rarely had to face off against any other World Champions. If he hadn't tried to punt Jacques Villeneuve off in '97 he might have had 8 championships... & if he hadn't punted Damon Hill off in '94, he might never have been WC at all...

Actually, Schumacher faced twice good competition with equal machinery. Hakkinen and Alonso... and he lost twice. lol

[anonymous-user]

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

- that quote alone shows how little you actually know. It's almost as if you weren't even watching at the time.

I very much doubt any other driver would have won the Championship with Benetton in 1994 and 1995.

To prove this when Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 he tested the 1995 Ferrari and was two seconds faster than Alesi and Berger.

Schumacher at the time said the Ferrari was a great car and many stated if he had been driving it Ferrari would have won a Championship.

I am sure if Schumacher hadn't broken his leg in 1999 he would have finished his career as an 8 time Champion.

Yes, Schumacher had it easier when Ferrari finally got their act together but in 2003 the McLaren was more than a match.

Since the 94 & 95 cars were built around Schumacher's driving style, & the team was built around him, you'd expect that to be the result. The fact that they needed to make sure the second driver was contracted as a number 2 & cheat as well doesn't really help your case. Ferrari didn't so much "get their act together": he took his team with him from Bennetton to Ferrari. Hamilton went from winning at Mclaren to a new team at Mercedes, & no "number 1" status in either. No one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation, but he contractually faced no competition from the other team driver, & rarely had to face off against any other World Champions. If he hadn't tried to punt Jacques Villeneuve off in '97 he might have had 8 championships... & if he hadn't punted Damon Hill off in '94, he might never have been WC at all...

I laugh at Hamilton fans and Schumacher being the devil.

Again I will never agree that Schumacher took out Hill in 1994. Hill put his car in a position that was never going to work and it cost him.

Damon Hill took out Schumacher twice in 1995 but this always seems to be forgotten about.

Senna gets called out as well but what about the very rarely talked about incident of Nigel Mansell being black-flagged in his Ferrari for reversing in the pitlane only to ignore and then hit and take out Senna which no doubt cost Senna the Championship in 1989.

[anonymous-user]

M5-911 said:

MarkwG said:

Since the 94 & 95 cars were built around Schumacher's driving style, & the team was built around him, you'd expect that to be the result. The fact that they needed to make sure the second driver was contracted as a number 2 & cheat as well doesn't really help your case. Ferrari didn't so much "get their act together": he took his team with him from Bennetton to Ferrari. Hamilton went from winning at Mclaren to a new team at Mercedes, & no "number 1" status in either. No one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation, but he contractually faced no competition from the other team driver, & rarely had to face off against any other World Champions. If he hadn't tried to punt Jacques Villeneuve off in '97 he might have had 8 championships... & if he hadn't punted Damon Hill off in '94, he might never have been WC at all...

Actually, Schumacher faced twice good competition with equal machinery. Hakkinen and Alonso... and he lost twice. lol

Just like Hamilton from 2009 to 2013?

[HighwayStar]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

[anonymous-user]

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

Always an excuse.

17 laps at Fiorano on the 16th of November 1995 in cold and damp conditions and 28 laps at Estoril on the 21st of November 1995.

So lots of advantages

[MarkwG]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

MarkwG said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

- that quote alone shows how little you actually know. It's almost as if you weren't even watching at the time.

I very much doubt any other driver would have won the Championship with Benetton in 1994 and 1995.

To prove this when Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 he tested the 1995 Ferrari and was two seconds faster than Alesi and Berger.

Schumacher at the time said the Ferrari was a great car and many stated if he had been driving it Ferrari would have won a Championship.

I am sure if Schumacher hadn't broken his leg in 1999 he would have finished his career as an 8 time Champion.

Yes, Schumacher had it easier when Ferrari finally got their act together but in 2003 the McLaren was more than a match.

Since the 94 & 95 cars were built around Schumacher's driving style, & the team was built around him, you'd expect that to be the result. The fact that they needed to make sure the second driver was contracted as a number 2 & cheat as well doesn't really help your case. Ferrari didn't so much "get their act together": he took his team with him from Bennetton to Ferrari. Hamilton went from winning at Mclaren to a new team at Mercedes, & no "number 1" status in either. No one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation, but he contractually faced no competition from the other team driver, & rarely had to face off against any other World Champions. If he hadn't tried to punt Jacques Villeneuve off in '97 he might have had 8 championships... & if he hadn't punted Damon Hill off in '94, he might never have been WC at all...

I laugh at Hamilton fans and Schumacher being the devil.

Again I will never agree that Schumacher took out Hill in 1994. Hill put his car in a position that was never going to work and it cost him.

Damon Hill took out Schumacher twice in 1995 but this always seems to be forgotten about.

Senna gets called out as well but what about the very rarely talked about incident of Nigel Mansell being black-flagged in his Ferrari for reversing in the pitlane only to ignore and then hit and take out Senna which no doubt cost Senna the Championship in 1989.

I said "no one I've heard denies Schumacher was the fastest of his generation", hardly saying he's the devil. Schumacher deliberately aimed his car at where he knew Hill was likely to be - that's not a racing incident, & the same as he did subsequently to Villeneuve. You're referring to the '95 British GP? Not forgotten, but where Schumacher turned in on Hill & both drivers were reprimanded, not just Hill...and the Italian when Hill had to avoid Taki Inoue & hit Schumacher's car in doing so - as I said, it's like you weren't even watching.

[HighwayStar]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

Always an excuse.

17 laps at Fiorano on the 16th of November 1995 in cold and damp conditions and 28 laps at Estoril on the 21st of November 1995.

So lots of advantages

Wow... From Mr Excuse himself. Always economical with the facts.
The internet is your friend...

“ It's amazing to think just how different this situation is from when Michael was driving. In the late 1990s and early 2000s he spent over 200 days away from home in a year, with promotional activities, races and tests. The testing element of it was huge, often up to 20 days before the start of the season, and then two or three days in every week following a Grand Prix.”

“ Ferrari committed a lot to testing because they had a special budget from Bridgestone, rumoured to be around £20 million per season, to carry out tyre development tests. Of course they would test all manner of new things on the car at the same time. It was quite a big advantage to have budget, two test tracks (Fiorano and Mugello) and unlimited test days.”

“ It's one of the reasons McLaren invested so heavily in simulation technology in the early 2000s, because they did not have the same luxury with testing as Ferrari. Now that investment is paying off massively as they are miles ahead and it's Ferrari who are playing catch up in that area.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/schuey-on-ferra...

So YES, lots of advantages

[Muzzer79]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

This is just silly now

[Exige77]

Muzzer79 said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

This is just silly now

Very silly indeed.

[vdn]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Jeeeeez.

A half reasoned and decent (ish) reply.

There's hope!

Edit: just read it properly.

Schumacher had a harder time getting his seven titles??

Edited by vdn on Monday 5th April 17:22

[angrymoby]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Are you using the fact that Tarso Marquez finished higher in the championship in 2001, in a Minardi, when both car finished only three times and neither driver scored a point, as evidence that Alonso isn't cracked up to much?

nope

[angrymoby]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

[Mr_Thyroid]

angrymoby said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Are you using the fact that Tarso Marquez finished higher in the championship in 2001, in a Minardi, when both car finished only three times and neither driver scored a point, as evidence that Alonso isn't cracked up to much?

nope

Good. That would be pretty silly.

[sparta6]

M5-911 said:

Actually, Schumacher faced twice good competition with equal machinery. Hakkinen and Alonso... and he lost twice. lol

You must've missed 2000
No bespoke tyres and a straight fight.


Alonso capitalised after FIA tyre intervention. Listen to Ross Brawn podcasts if in any doubt

[sparta6]

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

[sparta6]

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

[HighwayStar]

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

[sparta6]

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

Because Irvine was racing against the fabulous Mika.
Mika was almost as good as Michael over race distance.

Obviously Michael would have bagged the WDC had he not broken his leg.

It's not complicated.

Now show me where Bottas has got within 2 points of the WDC.