Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

[Oilchange]

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

[MiniMan64]

sparta6 said:

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

Because Irvine was racing against the fabulous Mika.
Mika was almost as good as Michael over race distance.

Obviously Michael would have bagged the WDC had he not broken his leg.

It's not complicated.

Now show me where Bottas has got within 2 points of the WDC.

Take Hamilton out of the picture for half the season and he’d have probably won it already

[sparta6]

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

And when you listen to Irvine, he openly admits he lacked the sheer speed and sheer talent of Schumacher.

No doubting MSC was the guvnor during his prime.

[sparta6]

MiniMan64 said:

sparta6 said:

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

Because Irvine was racing against the fabulous Mika.
Mika was almost as good as Michael over race distance.

Obviously Michael would have bagged the WDC had he not broken his leg.

It's not complicated.

Now show me where Bottas has got within 2 points of the WDC.

Take Hamilton out of the picture for half the season and he’d have probably won it already

That's the problem with Bottas, he wouldn't.
He always finds a way to fall asleep.

[Boom78]

I’m not a fan boy but after watching F1 for 30+ years he’s the best and most exciting driver I’ve seen by a country mile and it’s been lovely to watch that young green wheel banger with unparalleled speed turn into not only the faster guy but also the most consistent person on the grid. His race craft is right up there with the senna’s, Prost’s, Schumacher’s if not better. F1 will be a much sader place without him, also quite like how (with his dark helmet/visor/in car shot) he’s pretty much turned into the darth Vader of F1, you gotta be hot and on your game to beat him!

[vdn]

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

[sparta6]

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

let us know how many races the great Eddie Irvine won when not flattered by cars designed by Byrne/ Brawn

[sparta6]

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

let us know how many races the great Eddie Irvine won when not flattered by cars designed by Byrne/ Brawn

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

[carinaman]

Didn't Merc. giving the drive to Bottas help keep Williams afloat?

[Muzzer79]

sparta6 said:

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

I wondered how long it would take you to chime in to this thread.

Anyway:

Current WDC Hill was available in ‘97
Former WDC Villeneuve was available in ‘99
Hakkinen was available at least once between ‘96 and 2000
So was Coulthard
Frentzen was available in ‘99

Multiple drivers available from 2000 onwards that were arguably better than Barrichello but we’ll need to skirt around them as at that point it was concrete rather than inferred contractually; it didn’t matter if they were Fangio - they weren’t beating ‘MSC’.

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

wasn't Bottas in only his second year in F1 when a driver that got within 1 point of a WDC joined him at Williams? ...how did that pan out?

[sparta6]

Muzzer79 said:

sparta6 said:

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

I wondered how long it would take you to chime in to this thread.

Anyway:

Current WDC Hill was available in ‘97
Former WDC Villeneuve was available in ‘99
Hakkinen was available at least once between ‘96 and 2000
So was Coulthard
Frentzen was available in ‘99

Multiple drivers available from 2000 onwards that were arguably better than Barrichello but we’ll need to skirt around them as at that point it was concrete rather than inferred contractually; it didn’t matter if they were Fangio - they weren’t beating ‘MSC’.

Only Mika in that list had more speed and talent than Irvine & Barichello.
Eddie did well taking the fight to McLaren / Mika. 2 points was tight enough.

But Eddie did even better by unlapping himself on Senna. Full respect.
Bottas would not have the minerals for such.

[HighwayStar]

sparta6 said:

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

Because Irvine was racing against the fabulous Mika.
Mika was almost as good as Michael over race distance.

Obviously Michael would have bagged the WDC had he not broken his leg.

It's not complicated.

Now show me where Bottas has got within 2 points of the WDC.

Why? I’ve never made any claims about Bottas. Within 2 points, 1 points or 30 points, nobody cares about Irvine almost wining the WDC except you and maybe Irvine. The fact that Schumacher busted his leg shows Irvine wasn’t within 2 points purely on merit. He would not have been allowed to be, being Schuey’s butt monkey he would’ve known his place.

It’s not complicated.

[sparta6]

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

wasn't Bottas in only his second year in F1 when a driver that got within 1 point of a WDC joined him at Williams? ...how did that pan out?

Yep. Massa was never quite the same after that horrific skull fracture.

But that doesn't account for Bottas penchant for sleeping in the Mercedes.
"Wake Up Valteri - virgin George is sticking one up the inside of you "

Edited by sparta6 on Monday 5th April 20:59

[sparta6]

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

Irvine in '99.

ever the joker

Let us know when Bottas gets within 2 points of the WDC

Remind me exactly how and why Irvine got within 2 points of the WDC Sparta...

Because Irvine was racing against the fabulous Mika.
Mika was almost as good as Michael over race distance.

Obviously Michael would have bagged the WDC had he not broken his leg.

It's not complicated.

Now show me where Bottas has got within 2 points of the WDC.

Why? I’ve never made any claims about Bottas. Within 2 points, 1 points or 30 points, nobody cares about Irvine almost wining the WDC except you and maybe Irvine. The fact that Schumacher busted his leg shows Irvine wasn’t within 2 points purely on merit. He would not have been allowed to be, being Schuey’s butt monkey he would’ve known his place.

It’s not complicated.

Irvine was within 2 points of the WDC on merit.
The fact Irvine admits he was no match for Schumacher is refreshingly honest of a driver. Hill admitted the same.
Kudos to both.

[HighwayStar]

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

wasn't Bottas in only his second year in F1 when a driver that got within 1 point of a WDC joined him at Williams? ...how did that pan out?

Yep. Massa was never quite the same after that horrific skull fracture.

But that doesn't account for Bottas penchant for sleeping in the Mercedes.
"Wake Up Valteri - virgin George is sticking one up the inside of you "

Edited by sparta6 on Monday 5th April 20:59

With their current line up. What have Mercedes lost out on in the last 4 seasons... what has Bottas cost them?

[anonymous-user]

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

Always an excuse.

17 laps at Fiorano on the 16th of November 1995 in cold and damp conditions and 28 laps at Estoril on the 21st of November 1995.

So lots of advantages

Wow... From Mr Excuse himself. Always economical with the facts.
The internet is your friend...

“ It's amazing to think just how different this situation is from when Michael was driving. In the late 1990s and early 2000s he spent over 200 days away from home in a year, with promotional activities, races and tests. The testing element of it was huge, often up to 20 days before the start of the season, and then two or three days in every week following a Grand Prix.”

“ Ferrari committed a lot to testing because they had a special budget from Bridgestone, rumoured to be around £20 million per season, to carry out tyre development tests. Of course they would test all manner of new things on the car at the same time. It was quite a big advantage to have budget, two test tracks (Fiorano and Mugello) and unlimited test days.”

“ It's one of the reasons McLaren invested so heavily in simulation technology in the early 2000s, because they did not have the same luxury with testing as Ferrari. Now that investment is paying off massively as they are miles ahead and it's Ferrari who are playing catch up in that area.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/schuey-on-ferra...

So YES, lots of advantages

Please go back and read it over again. You have clearly completely missed the point.

The internet is your friend if you know what your asking it

[anonymous-user]

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

Even if this is true do you really think Herbert would have beaten M Schumacher?

[anonymous-user]

Muzzer79 said:

sparta6 said:

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

I wondered how long it would take you to chime in to this thread.

Anyway:

Current WDC Hill was available in ‘97
Former WDC Villeneuve was available in ‘99
Hakkinen was available at least once between ‘96 and 2000
So was Coulthard
Frentzen was available in ‘99

Multiple drivers available from 2000 onwards that were arguably better than Barrichello but we’ll need to skirt around them as at that point it was concrete rather than inferred contractually; it didn’t matter if they were Fangio - they weren’t beating ‘MSC’.

Apart from Hakkinen, the rest would not do any better than Barrichello. Are you really suggesting Hill or Coulthard?