Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

[sparta6]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

Even if this is true do you really think Herbert would have beaten M Schumacher?

Herbert was fast - but that was a bridge too far.

[HighwayStar]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

Always an excuse.

17 laps at Fiorano on the 16th of November 1995 in cold and damp conditions and 28 laps at Estoril on the 21st of November 1995.

So lots of advantages

Wow... From Mr Excuse himself. Always economical with the facts.
The internet is your friend...

“ It's amazing to think just how different this situation is from when Michael was driving. In the late 1990s and early 2000s he spent over 200 days away from home in a year, with promotional activities, races and tests. The testing element of it was huge, often up to 20 days before the start of the season, and then two or three days in every week following a Grand Prix.”

“ Ferrari committed a lot to testing because they had a special budget from Bridgestone, rumoured to be around £20 million per season, to carry out tyre development tests. Of course they would test all manner of new things on the car at the same time. It was quite a big advantage to have budget, two test tracks (Fiorano and Mugello) and unlimited test days.”

“ It's one of the reasons McLaren invested so heavily in simulation technology in the early 2000s, because they did not have the same luxury with testing as Ferrari. Now that investment is paying off massively as they are miles ahead and it's Ferrari who are playing catch up in that area.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/schuey-on-ferra...

So YES, lots of advantages

Please go back and read it over again. You have clearly completely missed the point.

The internet is your friend if you know what your asking it

Don’t need to, it’s backs what what I and others have said... you can chose to ignore it what doesn’t help you’re agenda.

[anonymous-user]

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

HighwayStar said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

angrymoby said:

Muzzer79 said:

In what other sport do you lose 2 years out of 3 and are then described as “more than a match” for your opponent??

Regarding the season Button lost by 2 points. That doesn’t mean he’s a match or more than one...it means he wasn’t as good that year.

This really isn’t complicated.....

Jim also seems to be implying that losing once each over the course of a season to Button & Rosberg somehow undermines Hamilton

the same Rosberg who beat Schumacher (i wont post the stats as it's embarrassing)

& the same Button who beat Alonso in 2015 (this being the 3rd time Alonso had been beaten by a team mate) ...also the same Button who beat Barrichello 3:1 including 2009 when he became a WDC (i only mention Barrichello, because you can use him as a yardstick for Button/ Schumacher, albeit Barrichello was always hamstrung as a No.2 at Ferrari)

At least the 39 year old Alonso seems to be dispelling the myth that age was Schumacher 2.0's issue

so in light of the above, i wonder where he puts Alonso & Schumi ...surely both must be outside his top 5 (as im guessing he's rated Hamilton as number 5)

Do you really think Schumacher was the same driver after being away for 4 years? Schumacher was basically not doing anything apart from falling off motorbikes.

Alonso has come back and destroyed his teammate but still states he needs time to get back into it. Alonso was still racing in other forms of motorsport while away.

Bottas is a clear number 2 at Mercedes so again I don't see why this keeps being ignored. He will never be a Champion even if Hamilton moved on.

I would not rate Alonso ahead of Hamilton but as a driver, I would say he is very close to Hamilton. Unfortunately, we have not seen him in a car worthy of his talent.

Schumacher is another matter. It would be hard to really say one was better than the other but I would say Schumacher had more of a challenge getting to his 7 titles with stiffer competition from others.

Also unlimited testing at Ferraris own track, bespoke tyres, a team focus entirely on Schumacher, team mates not allowed to see his data but he could see theirs if he was struggling. And questionable on track tactics. Absolutely a brilliant driver, one of the very best and he made full use of any and all advantages handed to him but let’s not overlook everything in his favour eh.

Always an excuse.

17 laps at Fiorano on the 16th of November 1995 in cold and damp conditions and 28 laps at Estoril on the 21st of November 1995.

So lots of advantages

Wow... From Mr Excuse himself. Always economical with the facts.
The internet is your friend...

“ It's amazing to think just how different this situation is from when Michael was driving. In the late 1990s and early 2000s he spent over 200 days away from home in a year, with promotional activities, races and tests. The testing element of it was huge, often up to 20 days before the start of the season, and then two or three days in every week following a Grand Prix.”

“ Ferrari committed a lot to testing because they had a special budget from Bridgestone, rumoured to be around £20 million per season, to carry out tyre development tests. Of course they would test all manner of new things on the car at the same time. It was quite a big advantage to have budget, two test tracks (Fiorano and Mugello) and unlimited test days.”

“ It's one of the reasons McLaren invested so heavily in simulation technology in the early 2000s, because they did not have the same luxury with testing as Ferrari. Now that investment is paying off massively as they are miles ahead and it's Ferrari who are playing catch up in that area.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/schuey-on-ferra...

So YES, lots of advantages

Please go back and read it over again. You have clearly completely missed the point.

The internet is your friend if you know what your asking it

Don’t need to, it’s backs what what I and others have said... you can chose to ignore it what doesn’t help you’re agenda.

You completely missed what I was talking about. It's not an agenda and was correct if you would take the time to actually read it.

[sparta6]

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

wasn't Bottas in only his second year in F1 when a driver that got within 1 point of a WDC joined him at Williams? ...how did that pan out?

Yep. Massa was never quite the same after that horrific skull fracture.

But that doesn't account for Bottas penchant for sleeping in the Mercedes.
"Wake Up Valteri - virgin George is sticking one up the inside of you "

Edited by sparta6 on Monday 5th April 20:59

With their current line up. What have Mercedes lost out on in the last 4 seasons... what has Bottas cost them?

Bottas has lost plenty of points for Mercedes. They've been fortunate that other teams couldn't mount a sustainable challenge.

Bottas has given Princess Lewis guaranteed WDC's.
Bottas is no Rosberg.

I completely understand why Lewis and Toto have kept him, although their outlook may change if Red Bull can maintain a challenge for the WCC this season.

[WickerBill]

• Checks back in after 3 days without the internet....you still going round in circles with the usual suspects talking meaningless crap, clearly with nothing better to do with their life*

• Checks back out**

[sparta6]

WickerBill said:

*Checks back in after 3 days without the internet....you still going round in circles with the usual suspects talking meaningless crap, clearly with nothing better to do with their life*

• Checks back out**

I chimed in at 18.30 today - but that's a good point well made

[Muzzer79]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Muzzer79 said:

sparta6 said:

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

I wondered how long it would take you to chime in to this thread.

Anyway:

Current WDC Hill was available in ‘97
Former WDC Villeneuve was available in ‘99
Hakkinen was available at least once between ‘96 and 2000
So was Coulthard
Frentzen was available in ‘99

Multiple drivers available from 2000 onwards that were arguably better than Barrichello but we’ll need to skirt around them as at that point it was concrete rather than inferred contractually; it didn’t matter if they were Fangio - they weren’t beating ‘MSC’.

Apart from Hakkinen, the rest would not do any better than Barrichello. Are you really suggesting Hill or Coulthard?

My list was better alternatives than Irvine - all proven race winners or WDC’s

Regarding Barrichello, that’s the point - we’ll never know.

You could have put Jim Clark’s illegitimate, better-than-Dad son in the car but contractually, he would had to have finished second.

That’s why to claim that Schumacher struggled for his Ferrari titles or had any form of internal competition is laughable.

[HighwayStar]

sparta6 said:

HighwayStar said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

sparta6 said:

4 years Bottas has sat in that Mercedes

Forget 2 points, let us know when Bottas gets within just 1 point of the WDC, like Massa

Bottas is not even a Top 10 driver

wasn't Bottas in only his second year in F1 when a driver that got within 1 point of a WDC joined him at Williams? ...how did that pan out?

Yep. Massa was never quite the same after that horrific skull fracture.

But that doesn't account for Bottas penchant for sleeping in the Mercedes.
"Wake Up Valteri - virgin George is sticking one up the inside of you "

Edited by sparta6 on Monday 5th April 20:59

With their current line up. What have Mercedes lost out on in the last 4 seasons... what has Bottas cost them?

Bottas has lost plenty of points for Mercedes. They've been fortunate that other teams couldn't mount a sustainable challenge.

Bottas has given Princess Lewis guaranteed WDC's.
Bottas is no Rosberg.

I completely understand why Lewis and Toto have kept him, although their outlook may change if Red Bull can maintain a challenge for the WCC this season.

You’re a funny guy... both titles last 4 seasons. In the bag. In the history books. What are you chatting about Sparta, I’m mean really?
You and Jim are both entertaining and amusing. Lewis is actually living in your head, rent free!

[Oilchange]

sparta6 said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

Even if this is true do you really think Herbert would have beaten M Schumacher?

Herbert was fast - but that was a bridge too far.

He did win 2 GPs that season, at Silverstone and Monza which peed off Briatore immensely. So I think it is entirely possible, had he equivalent status within the team, though we shall never know.
What I do know is that if Schumacher was such a driving god, why did he need all this other nonsense to win?

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

Yep. Massa was never quite the same after that horrific skull fracture.

possibly, but he started off in 2010 for the first few races actually better than he'd finished the last few before his injury in 2009

bigger issue was the sudden realisation he was a contracted number 2 again, especially after Hockenheim- where he'd done all the hard work of getting past Fred & Seb

Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 6th April 12:25

[vdn]

sparta6 said:

vdn said:

Bottas is no match for Lewis. It's obvious.

But pretending Schuey had ANY decent teammates is laughable. And on top of that, he demanded an uneven playing field in his favour!!!!! What's a sportsman. To quote the great sage, Wayne: "notttttttt"

Welcome back.

Who was faster than Irvine and Barrichello and available ?

Mika was not available.

Blinkers on much.

[vdn]

sparta6 said:

Bottas has lost plenty of points for Mercedes. They've been fortunate that other teams couldn't mount a sustainable challenge.

Bottas has given Princess Lewis guaranteed WDC's.
Bottas is no Rosberg.

I completely understand why Lewis and Toto have kept him, although their outlook may change if Red Bull can maintain a challenge for the WCC this season.

"Princess" ... you can't even hide the bias

Must hurt that no matter what you say, Hamilton is officially the most successful F1 driver, ever.

I can see where the frustration comes from

[Exige77]

vdn said:

sparta6 said:

Bottas has lost plenty of points for Mercedes. They've been fortunate that other teams couldn't mount a sustainable challenge.

Bottas has given Princess Lewis guaranteed WDC's.
Bottas is no Rosberg.

I completely understand why Lewis and Toto have kept him, although their outlook may change if Red Bull can maintain a challenge for the WCC this season.

"Princess" ... you can't even hide the bias

Must hurt that no matter what you say, Hamilton is officially the most successful F1 driver, ever.

I can see where the frustration comes from

We we appear to be having the same discussion here year after year. The other GOAT candidates don’t appear to be adding to their tallies yet Lewis keeps knocking out great performances, wins, poles and new records.

What ever he does will never be enough for some.

[M5-911]

Exige77 said:

We we appear to be having the same discussion here year after year. The other GOAT candidates don’t appear to be adding to their tallies yet Lewis keeps knocking out great performances, wins, poles and new records.

What ever he does will never be enough for some.

Indeed, Drivers who raced Schumacher in his prime such as Irvine, Hill, Brundle, Barrichello and and a few more are saying that Hamilton is just better and cleaner. surely ex racers knows a bit more than internet warriors?

trying to understand their logic require a PHD in Bullsh@t.

[vdn]

M5-911 said:

Exige77 said:

We we appear to be having the same discussion here year after year. The other GOAT candidates don’t appear to be adding to their tallies yet Lewis keeps knocking out great performances, wins, poles and new records.

What ever he does will never be enough for some.

Indeed, Drivers who raced Schumacher in his prime such as Irvine, Hill, Brundle, Barrichello and and a few more are saying that Hamilton is just better and cleaner. surely ex racers knows a bit more than internet warriors?

trying to understand their logic require a PHD in Bullsh@t.

Indeed.

Even Button, who some of the usual suspects keep bringing up as an argument against Hamilton's achievements, has said that Hamilton has always been the faster driver, but he wasn't the complete racer, when they were teammates, that he is now. He has said that Hamilton has never stopped improving.

And again, the teams bosses and staff vote Hamilton best driver year on year... but the usual suspects here know better.

[anonymous-user]

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Oilchange said:

sparta6 said:

angrymoby said:

not from anyone in the sister car he didn't ...which is the real litmus test of any driver

so i'll indulge, who do you rate as Schumi's greatest challenger as a team mate?

Irvine in '99.

I'm by no means an expert but having read a few autobiographies by Herbert etc it is clear that Schumacher gained advantages off track as well as on. For example he and Briatore were thick as thieves, ensuring all the data went one way in the pit bays, Schumachers way. Herbert was denied access to it. Herbert also achieved better times than Schumacher in qualifying but strangely when he went for his fast lap, the car was a second down. They knobbled him to give Schumacher the head start. Schumachers 'challenges' were often contractually diminished.

Even if this is true do you really think Herbert would have beaten M Schumacher?

Herbert was fast - but that was a bridge too far.

He did win 2 GPs that season, at Silverstone and Monza which peed off Briatore immensely. So I think it is entirely possible, had he equivalent status within the team, though we shall never know.
What I do know is that if Schumacher was such a driving god, why did he need all this other nonsense to win?

Was that the two races Hill hit Schumacher?

[anonymous-user]

M5-911 said:

Exige77 said:

We we appear to be having the same discussion here year after year. The other GOAT candidates don’t appear to be adding to their tallies yet Lewis keeps knocking out great performances, wins, poles and new records.

What ever he does will never be enough for some.

Indeed, Drivers who raced Schumacher in his prime such as Irvine, Hill, Brundle, Barrichello and and a few more are saying that Hamilton is just better and cleaner. surely ex racers knows a bit more than internet warriors?

trying to understand their logic require a PHD in Bullsh@t.

Alonso, Massa, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, Hakkinen and Schumacher himself all stated Senna was the number 1.

So clearly ex-racers know what they are talking about.

[nickfrog]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Alonso, Massa, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, Hakkinen and Schumacher himself all stated Senna was the number 1.

At what point of Hamilton's career did they say that though? Any links?

[Muzzer79]

nickfrog said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Alonso, Massa, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, Hakkinen and Schumacher himself all stated Senna was the number 1.

At what point of Hamilton's career did they say that though? Any links?

Don't bother - They probably all said it in 2005....

[angrymoby]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Alonso, Massa, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, Hakkinen and Schumacher himself all stated Senna was the number 1.

So clearly ex-racers know what they are talking about.

I have no problem with Senna being a lot of peoples number one, as he's a personal hero of mine ... but there is lot of misty eyed canonization going on there, which is why Prost is often overlooked (& for me, the equal of Senna)