Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

[RichB]

BrundanBianchi said:

sparta6 said:

Or better still, if Bottas had been allowed to be a bit more racey like Rosberg, VB could've won a title.

I agree

It's old childish thing to do. What a knob.

[HighwayStar]

BrundanBianchi said:

sparta6 said:

Or better still, if Bottas had been allowed to be a bit more racey like Rosberg, VB could've won a title.

I agree.

Oooh... what have we here... A new tag team.

[vdn]

BrundanBianchi said:

In order to even begin to qualify as G.O.A.T. he’d have to drive a crap car to a position it wasn’t worthy of, at least once ( as an absolute minimum ). Nothing could be further from the truth with him. If he’s had a dominant (or pretty damn good ) car, he’s often been hung out to dry by his team mates, Alonso and Rosberg for example ( another good measure). He’s been fortunate ( and that’s being gracious) that he’s been in an astonishing car, and his current team mate has been ordered to back off ( repeatedly).

Edited by BrundanBianchi on Friday 30th October 16:13

[TheDeuce]

HighwayStar said:

BrundanBianchi said:

sparta6 said:

Or better still, if Bottas had been allowed to be a bit more racey like Rosberg, VB could've won a title.

I agree.

Oooh... what have we here... A new tag team.

More like another account by the same user

It must be nice to agree with yourself so often when no one else does

[HurryUpAndWait]

vdn said:

BrundanBianchi said:

In order to even begin to qualify as G.O.A.T. he’d have to drive a crap car to a position it wasn’t worthy of, at least once ( as an absolute minimum ). Nothing could be further from the truth with him. If he’s had a dominant (or pretty damn good ) car, he’s often been hung out to dry by his team mates, Alonso and Rosberg for example ( another good measure). He’s been fortunate ( and that’s being gracious) that he’s been in an astonishing car, and his current team mate has been ordered to back off ( repeatedly).

Edited by BrundanBianchi on Friday 30th October 16:13

[A44RON]

Bo_apex said:

HighwayStar said:

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

Bo_apex said:

vdn said:

A44RON said:

It's worth noting that it took Hamilton 15 more races to reach the 91-win milestone on his 261st start with considerably more sustained dominant machinery throughout his career so far, while Schumacher took his 91st race win on his 246th start.

Schumacher contractually had an advantage, and so before the engines even fired up at the first race of a season, he was a leg up. Hamilton has never had the same nor has he asked for it. Worth noting.

That's because Schumacher's fight was with other faster teams.
Mercedes don't have that problem.

Ferrari have traditionally put more support behind their fastest driver. Gives them an outside chance

This is true. The only dominant cars Schumacher had were 2002 & 2004.

Nico Rosberg said in an interview a couple of years ago something along the lines of being in a dominant car conserves 5% of your brain capacity during a race because you only have to concentrate on your teammate and nobody else, because you have the utmost self-confidence in your machinery and therefore reduces pressure and mistakes.

Schumacher didn’t have to concentrate on his team mate

Exactly... they all knew their place. Basically they were his biatch.

The reality is they were all slower anyway. Ferrari had to throw all their eggs into the Schumacher basket to stand a chance.

They hadn't won a title for quite a while

This is true and Bottas is Barrichello 2.0; just not good enough. "Valtteri, it's James" etc etc.

[A44RON]

M5-911 said:

Not dominant last year and year before. Only their drivers were better.

Not dominant last year? Mercedes had 9 1-2 finishes and Bottas finished 2nd in the Championship lol. And this year is going the same way

2018 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2017 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2016 - 8 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2015 - 12 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2014 - 10 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship

So basically, Mercedes have had a Williams FW14B/Ferrari F2002/Ferrari F2004 for 5 of the last 7 years.

All credit to them, it is remarkable consistency, but it is what it is.

[bobbo89]

Frimley111R said:

Unfortunately the dominance of the Merc takes the shine off his skills but this helps show how good he is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdFHOS4x3k&ab...

Never seen that before and what a masterclass! Mainly from Hamilton but I never appreciated how good Glock was, his defending there was amazing and the way he and Hamilton kept it so close but also so clean really does show the real talents!

.....and that's what cements Hamilton's greatness to me. The likes of Senna and Schumi all had their iffy moments which one might argue was a bit of dirty racing but with Hamilton there's been none of that. He's been completely clinical, clean and fair in every championship he's won and to me that's the mark of true great, achieving it on pure talent alone.

Watching Top Gear last Sunday they did the piece about Stirling Moss, talking about how fair he was, a proper sportsman and a gentleman. Can't help but think that where Moss went down in the history books as the greatest driver never to achieve an F1 WC, Hamilton will go down in the history books who did, and then some!

Edited by bobbo89 on Saturday 31st October 08:57

[Exige77]

A44RON said:

M5-911 said:

Not dominant last year and year before. Only their drivers were better.

Not dominant last year? Mercedes had 9 1-2 finishes and Bottas finished 2nd in the Championship lol. And this year is going the same way

2018 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2017 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2016 - 8 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2015 - 12 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2014 - 10 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship

So basically, Mercedes have had a Williams FW14B/Ferrari F2002/Ferrari F2004 for 5 of the last 7 years.

All credit to them, it is remarkable consistency, but it is what it is.

As said previously, the numbers don’t tell the full story. It looks like a whitewash but actually the season was much closer.

The Mercedes car was not as dominant as the numbers suggest but the Mercedes team as a whole, including drivers, strategy, and all the other stuff produced the results.

As this threat is about Lewis and not the Mercedes car, he certainly greatly contributed to the success as he has done year after year.

[paulguitar]

bobbo89 said:

Frimley111R said:

Unfortunately the dominance of the Merc takes the shine off his skills but this helps show how good he is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdFHOS4x3k&ab...

Never seen that before and what a masterclass!

Edited by bobbo89 on Saturday 31st October 08:57

I envy you seeing that for the first time, what a race that was! By the way, That's when Hamilton really cemented his McLaren F1 seat for 2007. The whole of the F1 pitlane stopped work in the garages to watch that GP2 race on the TV monitors, dumbfounded.

I first saw Lewis race 'live' at Silverstone in 2006 in GP2. I'd been an avid follower since he was in Cadet Karts, so I was keen to see him race. In the feature race on Saturday afternoon, he simply drove off into the distance as if he was in another formula. On Sunday morning he started from 8th on the grid (as race winner from the previous day) and proceeded to overtake everyone and win again. There was on overtake for the lead at the Beckets complex, somewhere I'd never seen a move made before...:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hzmKieo3OQ

[A44RON]

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

M5-911 said:

Not dominant last year and year before. Only their drivers were better.

Not dominant last year? Mercedes had 9 1-2 finishes and Bottas finished 2nd in the Championship lol. And this year is going the same way

2018 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2017 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2016 - 8 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2015 - 12 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2014 - 10 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship

So basically, Mercedes have had a Williams FW14B/Ferrari F2002/Ferrari F2004 for 5 of the last 7 years.

All credit to them, it is remarkable consistency, but it is what it is.

As said previously, the numbers don’t tell the full story. It looks like a whitewash but actually the season was much closer.

The Mercedes car was not as dominant as the numbers suggest but the Mercedes team as a whole, including drivers, strategy, and all the other stuff produced the results.

As this threat is about Lewis and not the Mercedes car, he certainly greatly contributed to the success as he has done year after year.

What year are you on about in particular? The only one that springs to mind is 2018.

[Exige77]

A44RON said:

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

M5-911 said:

Not dominant last year and year before. Only their drivers were better.

Not dominant last year? Mercedes had 9 1-2 finishes and Bottas finished 2nd in the Championship lol. And this year is going the same way

2018 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2017 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2016 - 8 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2015 - 12 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2014 - 10 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship

So basically, Mercedes have had a Williams FW14B/Ferrari F2002/Ferrari F2004 for 5 of the last 7 years.

All credit to them, it is remarkable consistency, but it is what it is.

As said previously, the numbers don’t tell the full story. It looks like a whitewash but actually the season was much closer.

The Mercedes car was not as dominant as the numbers suggest but the Mercedes team as a whole, including drivers, strategy, and all the other stuff produced the results.

As this threat is about Lewis and not the Mercedes car, he certainly greatly contributed to the success as he has done year after year.

What year are you on about in particular? The only one that springs to mind is 2018.

You mentioned “last year” in the first line of your post. Looks like a whitewash but the reality is the Mercedes “car” was not miles ahead as results suggest.

[M5-911]

paulguitar said:

I envy you seeing that for the first time, what a race that was! By the way, That's when Hamilton really cemented his McLaren F1 seat for 2007. The whole of the F1 pitlane stopped work in the garages to watch that GP2 race on the TV monitors, dumbfounded.

I first saw Lewis race 'live' at Silverstone in 2006 in GP2. I'd been an avid follower since he was in Cadet Karts, so I was keen to see him race. In the feature race on Saturday afternoon, he simply drove off into the distance as if he was in another formula. On Sunday morning he started from 8th on the grid (as race winner from the previous day) and proceeded to overtake everyone and win again. There was on overtake for the lead at the Beckets complex, somewhere I'd never seen a move made before...:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hzmKieo3OQ

Never seen that one before. This is one of the finest over take I have ever seen.

[A44RON]

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

M5-911 said:

Not dominant last year and year before. Only their drivers were better.

Not dominant last year? Mercedes had 9 1-2 finishes and Bottas finished 2nd in the Championship lol. And this year is going the same way

2018 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2017 - 4 1-2 finishes (still more than any other team that year)
2016 - 8 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2015 - 12 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship
2014 - 10 1-2 finishes and both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship

So basically, Mercedes have had a Williams FW14B/Ferrari F2002/Ferrari F2004 for 5 of the last 7 years.

All credit to them, it is remarkable consistency, but it is what it is.

As said previously, the numbers don’t tell the full story. It looks like a whitewash but actually the season was much closer.

The Mercedes car was not as dominant as the numbers suggest but the Mercedes team as a whole, including drivers, strategy, and all the other stuff produced the results.

As this threat is about Lewis and not the Mercedes car, he certainly greatly contributed to the success as he has done year after year.

What year are you on about in particular? The only one that springs to mind is 2018.

You mentioned “last year” in the first line of your post. Looks like a whitewash but the reality is the Mercedes “car” was not miles ahead as results suggest.

But last year's Mercedes was a dominant car by every objective measure and the results do back that up. Otherwise you could say the same about the Ferrari F2004.....

[M5-911]

I think that one thing Mercedes have been very blessed with since 2013 basically is that they have always had the 2 best qualifiers on the grid every year. Rosberg, Hamilton then Bottas, Hamton.
Give a Mercedes to Verstapen and I doubt he would out qualify Bottas on many tracks. That is costly for the other teams. Pole is so important with the nature of these cars and Mercedes have bagged the best drivers for it. Even on tracks were they were not the best agaisb Ferrari they could deliver pretty amazing pole laps.

Edited by M5-911 on Saturday 31st October 10:45

Edited by M5-911 on Saturday 31st October 10:45

[Exige77]

A44RON said:

But last year's Mercedes was a dominant car by every objective measure and the results do back that up. Otherwise you could say the same about the Ferrari F2004.....

Are speed trap numbers a objective measure ?

There’s no doubt the Red team had a competitive car last year. They crashed a lot and made various strategic errors which made the Mercedes numbers look like they were miles ahead which the weren’t.

The results are factual. No one can argue but I think seasoned F1 watchers can see the results don’t tell the full story.

[A44RON]

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

But last year's Mercedes was a dominant car by every objective measure and the results do back that up. Otherwise you could say the same about the Ferrari F2004.....

Are speed trap numbers a objective measure ?

There’s no doubt the Red team had a competitive car last year. They crashed a lot and made various strategic errors which made the Mercedes numbers look like they were miles ahead which the weren’t.

The results are factual. No one can argue but I think seasoned F1 watchers can see the results don’t tell the full story.

and seasoned watchers can see this:

2019 Mercedes: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row!), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 32 combined podium finishes, 10 poles, 9 Fastest Laps, (from 21 races)

2013 Red Bull: 4 1-2s, 24 combined podium finishes, 11 poles, 11 Fastest Laps (from 19 races)

2009 Brawn: 4 1-2s, 15 combined podium finishes, 5 poles, 4 fastest laps (from 17 races)

2004 Ferrari: 8 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 29 combined podiums, 11 poles, 11 fastest laps
(from 18 races)

2002 Ferrari: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 27 combined podiums, 10 poles, 7 fastest laps (from 17 races)

1992 Williams: 6 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 21 combined podiums, 15 poles, 11 fastest laps (from 16 races)


shows the 2019 Mercedes was indeed more dominant than the most dominant Red Bull that Vettel had...

[Callum43]

BrundanBianchi said:

In order to even begin to qualify as G.O.A.T. he’d have to drive a crap car to a position it wasn’t worthy of, at least once ( as an absolute minimum ). Nothing could be further from the truth with him. If he’s had a dominant (or pretty damn good ) car, he’s often been hung out to dry by his team mates, Alonso and Rosberg for example ( another good measure). He’s been fortunate ( and that’s being gracious) that he’s been in an astonishing car, and his current team mate has been ordered to back off ( repeatedly).

Edited by BrundanBianchi on Friday 30th October 16:13

My oh my he’s been a busy boy in the three months since they took him of his meds.

[Exige77]

A44RON said:

Exige77 said:

A44RON said:

But last year's Mercedes was a dominant car by every objective measure and the results do back that up. Otherwise you could say the same about the Ferrari F2004.....

Are speed trap numbers a objective measure ?

There’s no doubt the Red team had a competitive car last year. They crashed a lot and made various strategic errors which made the Mercedes numbers look like they were miles ahead which the weren’t.

The results are factual. No one can argue but I think seasoned F1 watchers can see the results don’t tell the full story.

and seasoned watchers can see this:

2019 Mercedes: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row!), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 32 combined podium finishes, 10 poles, 9 Fastest Laps, (from 21 races)

2013 Red Bull: 4 1-2s, 24 combined podium finishes, 11 poles, 11 Fastest Laps (from 19 races)

2009 Brawn: 4 1-2s, 15 combined podium finishes, 5 poles, 4 fastest laps (from 17 races)

2004 Ferrari: 8 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 29 combined podiums, 11 poles, 11 fastest laps
(from 18 races)

2002 Ferrari: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 27 combined podiums, 10 poles, 7 fastest laps (from 17 races)

1992 Williams: 6 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 21 combined podiums, 15 poles, 11 fastest laps (from 16 races)


shows the 2019 Mercedes was indeed more dominant than the most dominant Red Bull that Vettel had...

You’re looking at the stats again which no one is disputing .

I’ll leave you debate it with yourself.

Quali soon !!

[M5-911]

A44RON said:

and seasoned watchers can see this:

2019 Mercedes: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row!), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 32 combined podium finishes, 10 poles, 9 Fastest Laps, (from 21 races)

2013 Red Bull: 4 1-2s, 24 combined podium finishes, 11 poles, 11 Fastest Laps (from 19 races)

2009 Brawn: 4 1-2s, 15 combined podium finishes, 5 poles, 4 fastest laps (from 17 races)

2004 Ferrari: 8 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 29 combined podiums, 11 poles, 11 fastest laps
(from 18 races)

2002 Ferrari: 9 1-2s (including 5 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 27 combined podiums, 10 poles, 7 fastest laps (from 17 races)

1992 Williams: 6 1-2s (including 3 in a row), both drivers finishing 1st and 2nd in Championship, 21 combined podiums, 15 poles, 11 fastest laps (from 16 races)


shows the 2019 Mercedes was indeed more dominant than the most dominant Red Bull that Vettel had...

I think your interpretation lack on essential thing. The drivers...

1992, mansell good driver, patrese... Mediocre

2002, MSC awesome driver, Barrichello... Not aloud to compete and not very good qualifier or racer.


2009, Button, good driver, Barrichello again... And not very helped by the team.

2013, Vettel, very good driver with that Redbull, Webber, good but definitely number 2 driver.

2019, Hamilton, greatest qualifier of all time without a doubt one of the greatest racer ever. Bottas, insanely good at qualifying, not very good when compared to the greatest which is his team mate.

Basically, the only team who has paired the best overall drivers to win constructor and driver championship is Mercedes.

As shown, their domination is because the car/drivers combination. Other teams never had 2 top drivers at one job or another (qualifier or racer) as team mate.