which weekend fun car...Elise S1 or MX5
Discussion
carl carlson said:
Always amuses me when someone says "get driver training". Its not needed, not needed at all and you would be better off spending your 400 odd quid on a good geo set up removing that stupid bloody oversteer lotus built into it.
I mentioned driver training ... Alternatively, a Car Limits activity day would be a good idea. ~£50 for a day on an airfield 
It gives you the opportunity to find the limits of your car and go beyond in the safe confines of a few square miles! Good fun too!carl carlson said:
I agree. I suspect that many of the crashed cars the driver was saying only moments before "watch this!"
Always amuses me when someone says "get driver training". Its not needed, not needed at all and you would be better off spending your 400 odd quid on a good geo set up removing that stupid bloody understeer lotus built into it.
Oversteer wasn't "built in" to the S1 - it was a result of a short chassis with a small slip angle coupled with extremely high level of grip so when it did let go, it went big time and was hard to correct (read easy to over correct). It was one of side affects of having such a good handling car in the first place. Interestingly enough - most S2 owners complain of the understeer geo'd into their cars to make it a bit safer.....Always amuses me when someone says "get driver training". Its not needed, not needed at all and you would be better off spending your 400 odd quid on a good geo set up removing that stupid bloody understeer lotus built into it.
Edited by carl carlson on Monday 16th May 14:04
Edited by carl carlson on Monday 16th May 14:05
speaking as an ex S1 & S2 owner.
Herbs said:
I'm sure that said oversteer a minute ago????
never mind me i'll get my coat
It did, I typed oversteer instead of understeer. DOH! Mine is a S2 and it understeered when you where getting close to the limit. The geo, a 340R one,got rid of this and the car is much better for it.never mind me i'll get my coat
Ikemi said:
carl carlson said:
The geo, a 340R one,got rid of this and the car is much better for it.
I've had this done too ... Well worth doing imho!carl carlson said:
It did, I typed oversteer instead of understeer. DOH! Mine is a S2 and it understeered when you where getting close to the limit. The geo, a 340R one,got rid of this and the car is much better for it.
Not sure I follow your logic Carl. Rather than pay for a bit of training you think a novice to RWD/Elise should spend the cash on adjusting the suspension geometry to dial out the understeer Lotus intended to keep them out of the hedge.
I've owned an MX-5, currently own an S2 Elise and have driven an S1. MX-5 if you need to live with it every day, S1 Elise if you don't (or if you can put up with it as a daily).
I agree with Kambites and 300bhp/ton about the handling - I haven't crashed mine yet either, but I suspect that if I had been taking the liberties with it I used to be comfortable taking with the Mazda, I might well have done. The Elise's limits are higher, but the pleasure is in driving it as neatly and precisely as you can, not in deliberately kicking the back out whenever the road is wet and you think nobody is looking.
I agree with Kambites and 300bhp/ton about the handling - I haven't crashed mine yet either, but I suspect that if I had been taking the liberties with it I used to be comfortable taking with the Mazda, I might well have done. The Elise's limits are higher, but the pleasure is in driving it as neatly and precisely as you can, not in deliberately kicking the back out whenever the road is wet and you think nobody is looking.
John D. said:
carl carlson said:
It did, I typed oversteer instead of understeer. DOH! Mine is a S2 and it understeered when you where getting close to the limit. The geo, a 340R one,got rid of this and the car is much better for it.
Not sure I follow your logic Carl. Rather than pay for a bit of training you think a novice to RWD/Elise should spend the cash on adjusting the suspension geometry to dial out the understeer Lotus intended to keep them out of the hedge.
carl carlson said:
Like I said before, when exiting a corner remember the mantra off "Don't put your foot down till you know you don't have to take it off again." Simple eh?
Which is where the MX-5 is different, because even people who aren't driving gods can get away with ignoring that advice.carl carlson said:
Yeah I do. Doesn't matter if its FWD or RWD, if you drive within your capabilities then you are not going to stuff it at the next corner. Its only when some idiot has the bright idea to show off or is trying to keep up with his mate, usually when on a run together. Like I said before, when exiting a corner remember the mantra off "Don't put your foot down till you know you don't have to take it off again." Simple eh?
Not really, and not if you want to steer the car on the throttle. Also FWD/RWD makes a huge difference, in fact FWD open diff VS FWD LSD makes a huge difference, as applying throttle in the latter can actually cause it to tuck in tighter into a corner, but you might still have ease off depending on the terrain, speed, conditions, etc.carl carlson said:
John D. said:
carl carlson said:
It did, I typed oversteer instead of understeer. DOH! Mine is a S2 and it understeered when you where getting close to the limit. The geo, a 340R one,got rid of this and the car is much better for it.
Not sure I follow your logic Carl. Rather than pay for a bit of training you think a novice to RWD/Elise should spend the cash on adjusting the suspension geometry to dial out the understeer Lotus intended to keep them out of the hedge.
Fortunately on both occasions I caught the rear end ... Luck most likely had a lot to do with it, what with the low RPM. However a day of fun at North Wield Airfield definitely helped to some degree.
Edited by Ikemi on Monday 16th May 15:51
Ikemi said:
OP said 'cheap to run' 
Based on my mates Wedge, it will cost very little in fuel as it is mostly broken 
Will be interested to see which car you go for, just test a few and see which makes you grin the most. Then buy that. It doesnt matter what anyone else says about it as long as you enjoy it.
kambites said:
However much "driving gods" may say that the Elise is easy to drive (and I've certainly not found mine a problem), the simple fact is that a huge number of Elises get thrown into hedges within the first few weeks of being bought. I suspect the same isn't true of MX5s.
I suspect it's quite common that someone buys an Elise as a first RWD car, thinks "woohoo, I can drift now", floors it around the first roundabout they get to, gets huge amounts of understeer, snaps the throttle closed and ends up pointing the wrong way down the road. Of course it's not something an experienced driver would do, but it still seems to happen remarkably often.
^^^^Nail. Head.I suspect it's quite common that someone buys an Elise as a first RWD car, thinks "woohoo, I can drift now", floors it around the first roundabout they get to, gets huge amounts of understeer, snaps the throttle closed and ends up pointing the wrong way down the road. Of course it's not something an experienced driver would do, but it still seems to happen remarkably often.
As someone who worked as a body repair coordinator for a Lotus dealership that also sold a certain Jap-Turbo-Nutter-4WD-rally alternative, I have to agree.
Two types of people by an Elise. Pilots and posers.
During the winter months or freak heavy rainfall, I would look out of the window and rub my hands with all the work that was about to come my way.
Both pilots and posers crash. However, pilots crash because they just slightly over-cooked an element of their driving and would focus on how quickly they could get their Elise back so that they could try the same corner again.
Posers would come in with either rear end damage that was masked initially by hawthorn hedge cuttings or a completely wrecked front where they have figured out why ABS is a good thing if you don't know what you're doing. They would not esquire as to when they could have their Elise back. They would either hope for a write-off or slide their way over to the rather safe looking but airbag/abs equipped blue four-door would cost with a Cat D Elise against it.
I must say I am suprised to hear that lots of Elises end up in ditches etc.. I struggled to get mine to slide in any way at all, it was just so beautifully planted. But then I am aware Kambites has far more knowledge in this area than I.
But OP, to my mind there is no real contest - an Elise is a fantastically fun car to drive. You only live once after all!
But OP, to my mind there is no real contest - an Elise is a fantastically fun car to drive. You only live once after all!
Wow, what can I say, firstly thanks for all the replies. I was in 2 minds about posting the question initially due to the cutting nature of this forum on occasions, however, this thread has restored my faith. (cue a barrage of s
t....)
So many opinions/thoughts/suggestions, many of which I've considered between the 2 cars. Thanks for the other suggestions, but I already run a thirsty V8 audi, and the idea of a TVR or similar is not one I would cherish, nor would I feel safe in trying to exploit its potential.
Which brings me onto a a few of the comments around being reasonably handy in driving a car.....I like to think I can drive a car relativley safely/briskly, however, my experience of driving a RWD is limited to 22 years ago, when I was 18 and had a MK2 2L Vauxhall Cavalier.
Whilst I used to enjoy getting the old girls back end out on junctions, that was my last ever experience of driven rear wheels. All my cars since then have been either FWD, or as they got more powerful/expensive have been AWD or Quattro (Torsen and Haldex).
When I say a fun toy, the thought of getting car I purchase sideways (when no-one was looking as posted earlier) is one I'd like to partake in when the opportunity arises.
In that respect, It does seem the MX5 would be a fair bit more forgiving/easier to get to the limit at a reasonably safer speed. I'd probably look to track it 2 or 3 times as well, to enjoy it for what it was.
I've not driven one yet, and may well hate it (albeit coming from a nose heavy S4), but the MX5 should a least feel pretty nimble, if not a touch slow on acceleration.
Common sense would seem to suggest (as do a few posters above), that I get to learn the dynamics of RWD in something a touch more forgiving (cheaper etc) before moving up to an Elise.
If I buy a £3k MX5, chances are I'll only ever lose 1k in the next 9-12 months, in which case I could then move it on and replace with the Lotus.
I would hope to find myself actually using it for its purpose namely of Sunday morning runs, summer evenings, maybe the odd commute to work when the weather allows, all with the roof down.
I'm not sold on the looks of the MX5, but from inside I'll not be able to see how much of an t0sser I may look while in it.
The Elise looks so much more the part, of course which it is, but I question my ability to drive it "how it should be driven".
I think I need to go trawl through a few of the classifieds and see if I can arrange a viewing of a few to help move my thoughts on one way or another.
Insurance is coming out cheap on both, at around £240 full comp, so that's not even a consideration
Once again, thanks to those who have taken time to reply. Whilst you've not persuaded me either way, it's given me plenty to consider.
Matt
t....)So many opinions/thoughts/suggestions, many of which I've considered between the 2 cars. Thanks for the other suggestions, but I already run a thirsty V8 audi, and the idea of a TVR or similar is not one I would cherish, nor would I feel safe in trying to exploit its potential.
Which brings me onto a a few of the comments around being reasonably handy in driving a car.....I like to think I can drive a car relativley safely/briskly, however, my experience of driving a RWD is limited to 22 years ago, when I was 18 and had a MK2 2L Vauxhall Cavalier.
Whilst I used to enjoy getting the old girls back end out on junctions, that was my last ever experience of driven rear wheels. All my cars since then have been either FWD, or as they got more powerful/expensive have been AWD or Quattro (Torsen and Haldex).
When I say a fun toy, the thought of getting car I purchase sideways (when no-one was looking as posted earlier) is one I'd like to partake in when the opportunity arises.
In that respect, It does seem the MX5 would be a fair bit more forgiving/easier to get to the limit at a reasonably safer speed. I'd probably look to track it 2 or 3 times as well, to enjoy it for what it was.
I've not driven one yet, and may well hate it (albeit coming from a nose heavy S4), but the MX5 should a least feel pretty nimble, if not a touch slow on acceleration.
Common sense would seem to suggest (as do a few posters above), that I get to learn the dynamics of RWD in something a touch more forgiving (cheaper etc) before moving up to an Elise.
If I buy a £3k MX5, chances are I'll only ever lose 1k in the next 9-12 months, in which case I could then move it on and replace with the Lotus.
I would hope to find myself actually using it for its purpose namely of Sunday morning runs, summer evenings, maybe the odd commute to work when the weather allows, all with the roof down.
I'm not sold on the looks of the MX5, but from inside I'll not be able to see how much of an t0sser I may look while in it.
The Elise looks so much more the part, of course which it is, but I question my ability to drive it "how it should be driven".
I think I need to go trawl through a few of the classifieds and see if I can arrange a viewing of a few to help move my thoughts on one way or another.
Insurance is coming out cheap on both, at around £240 full comp, so that's not even a consideration
Once again, thanks to those who have taken time to reply. Whilst you've not persuaded me either way, it's given me plenty to consider.
Matt
If your thinking of owning the Mazda MX5 and then trading upto an Elise, I would personally just go straight for the Elise, for your 8k budget you'll be looking at a base engined/power S1. I could understand if you were talking about a 240bhp supercharged Elise but with 120bhp I'd just jump straight into the Elise and enjoy it. The money you don't lose on owning the MX5 first could be put to good use upgrading the suspension, bushes, brakes on the Elise especially if you are intending on doing track days.
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