Why was Honda NSX not a great seller?

[otolith]

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

[Alfanatic]

marcosgt said:

Alfanatic said:

The GT40 is world famous as the blue collar supercar from the '60s. I'm pretty sure they didn't sell many of the original but then it was built to race, not to sell. However, what it did do was build an exceptional legacy, as its value is easy to recognise in hindsight. Generations of kit car lookalikes helped keep it in the public's imagination too. So when GT no. 2 came about, it didn't have to be half as good as the original to be credible, it just had to not be pants.

The GT40, as you sort of say, was a GT racer, it was NEVER a 'blue collar supercar' - It was hardly cheap and only a handful were built for the road.

Fair point, and I can't argue with that.

I was referring more to the badge having the blue collar halo rather than the car itself, which you're quite right, is and always has been close to unobtainable. Whenever I think of the original GT I think of the whole famous "blue collar Ford sticking it to the aristocratic Ferrari" episode. It's a true story version of the popular "boy from the wrong side of town does good", or "down and out maid with heart of gold becomes princess" kind of stories, I think these really do capture the public's imagination.

It may have been a rare, expensive slice of unobtanium just like its equivalents from Ferrari, but the Ford badge meant that the average working class dreamer could see it as one of their own kin, whereas the lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-aimless image that comes with most anything wearing a Ferrari badge may as well be from another planet.

Reverse badge snobbery, if you will, and probably more so in hindsight, when the events are done and the legend starts to build, than in the days when the GT40 was actually on track winning races.

[XitUp]

scampbird said:

Nerds car? Disagree with that completely. Its no more a nerds car than a 911 is a city wideboys car.

So it is a nerds car.

By the way, this isn't a bad thing. I'm a nerd and I'd love one.

[LuS1fer]

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

That wouldn't explain why they like the GTR though would it? Even if Ferrari made a modern V6 Dino, I would pretty much expect it to sell for no more than £70k-£80k even now. It's not like even a Ferrari V6 could command those prices surely?

[scampbird]

XitUp said:

scampbird said:

Nerds car? Disagree with that completely. Its no more a nerds car than a 911 is a city wideboys car.

So it is a nerds car.

By the way, this isn't a bad thing. I'm a nerd and I'd love one.

I don't go in for all this labelling of a car by some sociological generalisation. People buy cars for all sorts of personal, subjective reasons.

That said, I agree that the NSX appeals on a nerdy level. But how is that any different to a 911? Don't think it is personally.

[XitUp]

scampbird said:

I don't go in for all this labelling of a car by some sociological generalisation. People buy cars for all sorts of personal, subjective reasons.

That said, I agree that the NSX appeals on a nerdy level. But how is that any different to a 911? Don't think it is personally.

I'd say a GT3 RS appeals on a nerdy level, most other new 911s don't appeal to me that much.

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rmm-xqRHGw

[otolith]

LuS1fer said:

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

That wouldn't explain why they like the GTR though would it? Even if Ferrari made a modern V6 Dino, I would pretty much expect it to sell for no more than £70k-£80k even now. It's not like even a Ferrari V6 could command those prices surely?

I think the same would apply - I think that a GTR bearing the badge of a Japanese marque would get a different review to one wearing a German or Italian one. Or an American one!

[LuS1fer]

otolith said:

LuS1fer said:

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

That wouldn't explain why they like the GTR though would it? Even if Ferrari made a modern V6 Dino, I would pretty much expect it to sell for no more than £70k-£80k even now. It's not like even a Ferrari V6 could command those prices surely?

I think the same would apply - I think that a GTR bearing the badge of a Japanese marque would get a different review to one wearing a German or Italian one.

I'm not wholly convinced. Even the dreaded Clarkson stuck the Corvette C6 Z06 next to the Ferrari 599 and wondered where all the extra money for the Ferrari was justified.

Of course it probably isn't , it's just that Italian marques seem able to get away with massive "designer" price tags without question - everyone else has to justify the cost (witness the Corvette ZR1).

[jackal]

When i said nerd i suppose i meant it in the sense of anorak or enthusiast ... I.e. Someone who will be bothered to look very closely at the spec sheet, beyond the badge, thumb through autocars handling day '91, read up about Senna's involvement, someone who has a good understanding and appreciation of things like vtec ... someone who gets their thrills from a deep and intimate knowledge and understanding of what they ar driving.... rather than just whether other people will be impressed by it on the Kings Road. In a sense i meant people like us.

Depsite the amount of people on places like PH, I still think this is a very small market. Back in the 1990 when the car was launched, nearly every punter out there with 60k to blow on a car to make them feel good and reflect their status in life probably wouldn't have the first clue as to what 'induction roar' is, let alone 'all aluminium monocoque'.If you told them they wouldnt have given a s*** either.

If we are talking junior mid engimed supercars of that era then give me the user friendliness, engineering and build quality of the nsx, the steering and handling of the esprit S4S and the visual drama and emotional impact of the 348. That would have been the perfect car ... But hang on, I know that car, it exists, its the Ferrari F430 ! And on that note Its amazing to think that it took Ferrari 20 years to produce something that feels as well screwed together as an NSX.

Edited by jackal on Thursday 2nd June 10:56

[NoelWatson]

jackal said:

But hang on, I know that car, it exists, its the Ferrari F430 ! And on that note Its amazing to think that it took Ferrari 20 years to produce something that feels as well screwed together as an NSX.

Can they do 100k miles these days with no engine work required and/or loss of power?

[RobM77]

NoelWatson said:

Can they do 100k miles these days with no engine work required and/or loss of power?

don't forget the loss of residuals

The weird thing about Ferraris is that they only seem to sell with less than 30k miles on the clock, whereas an NSX or Porsche will sell with 70k, 80k or even over 100k miles on the clock. I suppose it's the running costs making them a weekend toy. Caterhams are a good example - they're reliable, but because they're used as weekend toys there are so many with 10k miles on the clock it makes it harder to sell one with more.

Regarding Jackal's post above about nerd's cars, I agree entirely, and his post was very well put. I just need to save up for an F430 now!

[RobM77]

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

Off topic, but I've tried repeating that blind test at home, and when blindfolded the difference between red and white wine (both at room temperature) was obvious. We tested again comparing a £5 Cote du Rhone with a £20 Chateauneuf du Pape from a vineyard up the road and the difference was even more obvious. I genuinely don't understand that guy's findings.

[LuS1fer]

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

Off topic, but I've tried repeating that blind test at home, and when blindfolded the difference between red and white wine (both at room temperature) was obvious. We tested again comparing a £5 Cote du Rhone with a £20 Chateauneuf du Pape from a vineyard up the road and the difference was even more obvious. I genuinely don't understand that guy's findings.

Isn't it true that if you put a peg on your nose, you can't tell the difference between most things?

[otolith]

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

Off topic, but I've tried repeating that blind test at home, and when blindfolded the difference between red and white wine (both at room temperature) was obvious. We tested again comparing a £5 Cote du Rhone with a £20 Chateauneuf du Pape from a vineyard up the road and the difference was even more obvious. I genuinely don't understand that guy's findings.

It was a blind tasting, but you knew that one of the wines was white. Not quite the same thing. The point is not that red and white wines taste the same, rather that when people taste a white wine they believe to be a red wine, they use stereotypical red wine attributes to describe it.

[jackal]

NoelWatson said:

Can they do 100k miles these days with no engine work required and/or loss of power?

You going all nerdy on me again ! But yep, why not. Ferrari have come of age. From 355 to 360 to 430 there has been a big jump in reliability and build quality between each model.

But hey, have you ever accelerated through the gears in a 430, kissing 8500rpm everytime ?

Two words: 'WHO CARES'

[jackal]

RobM77 said:

The weird thing about Ferraris is that they only seem to sell with less than 30k miles on the clock

I wouldn't believe everything you read in an advert, especially the models with a machanical speedo cable.

[jackal]

otolith said:

It was a blind tasting, but you knew that one of the wines was white. Not quite the same thing. The point is not that red and white wines taste the same, rather that when people taste a white wine they believe to be a red wine, they use stereotypical red wine attributes to describe it.

Smell and taste are interlinked and its been that way since birth. There is a strong cognitive connection so much so that its very hard to split them. So you can have something that smells like an apple but that has been made tasteless but people will swear that it actually tastes like an apple as well.

It's interesting stuff. Reminds of that phenomenon where someone who is hypnotised and then fooled into thinking that he is being touched with a lit cigarette (even though its actually the end of a pencil) and that person will then develop an actual burn mark on his skin where the stimulus touched him.

[otolith]

Most of what we think of as taste is smell. The wine experiment was colouring a white wine to look like a red, though, and looking at what words they used to describe it.

I suspect that if you badged a generic small hatchback as a FIAT it would magically acquire a "fizzy" engine with a "rorty" note and demand to be thrashed everywhere, while if you badged it as a Toyota it would immediately become soulless. I don't think people can avoid subconsciously applying these preconceptions to their perception of the intangible attributes of a car.

[RobM77]

otolith said:

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

I suspect that if it had been sold with an Italian badge on the nose, reviewers would have reported a completely different set of subjective attributes - like this.

Off topic, but I've tried repeating that blind test at home, and when blindfolded the difference between red and white wine (both at room temperature) was obvious. We tested again comparing a £5 Cote du Rhone with a £20 Chateauneuf du Pape from a vineyard up the road and the difference was even more obvious. I genuinely don't understand that guy's findings.

It was a blind tasting, but you knew that one of the wines was white. Not quite the same thing. The point is not that red and white wines taste the same, rather that when people taste a white wine they believe to be a red wine, they use stereotypical red wine attributes to describe it.

Actually, when I did it I didn't. My girlfriend tricked me gave me two reds. It did fool me at first, because I thought they tasted the same and was trying to find a difference. I tried each one twice before asking her if she'd tricked me :-D

There was an interesting episode of "In Our Time" on this the other day actually; I listened to it last night on my way home from work. It was describing how all of our senses rely on each other. So yes, sight, sound and smell are all linked. I've seen good demonstrations of this, but with the wine we couldn't fool ourselves by shutting off just the sight (and knowledge of what it is we were trying).

[jackal]

otolith said:

I suspect that if you badged a generic small hatchback as a FIAT it would magically acquire a "fizzy" engine with a "rorty" note and demand to be thrashed everywhere, while if you badged it as a Toyota it would immediately become soulless. I don't think people can avoid subconsciously applying these preconceptions to their perception of the intangible attributes of a car.

Conversely, its fabulous when you have these preconceptions and expectations smashed. I was expecting that with the F430. Having sampled older ferraris in years gone by I was expecting a kit car feel, ham fisted damping, and an inert overassisted steering wheel with only a vague diffuse sense of connectivity. WRONG.