Why was Honda NSX not a great seller?
Discussion
silver surfer said:
XB70 said:
I keep coming back to the NSX but having been in two (manual and automatic) I found them really disappointing to be honest.
The noise of the manual on full bore sounded great but it seemed that it had to be high in the rev range (so exceeding speed limit or keeping in a lower gear) and the acceleration was ok-ish. The roads did not allow any exploration of the handling but I got out thinking "Really, is that it?"
I then had a look at, and a decent drive of an auto, and that was even more disappointing and felt very very underpowered.
In both instances I left the cars without a sense of "wow, I need this RIGHT now". Now, it may be a issue of not having spent enough time with them but there was just no connection.
NSX straight line acceleration and speed was sufficient 10-20 yrs ago but now all manners of VERY modern hot hatches will acchieve sub 6 sec 0-60mph....therefore most drivers nowadays will feel a little underwhelm with the NSX.....but take the NSX onto a B road and you will appreciate it's abilities...the stability, the grip, the accuracy of the steering, the abilty to iron out bumps and camber etc. In this environment, modern Ferraris, Porsches and Lambos had difficulty to shake the NSX off it's tail. The handling of the NSX allows the driver to drive at 9-10/10th of the cars abilities and the feeling is sublime! This with ONLY 280bhp!!!The noise of the manual on full bore sounded great but it seemed that it had to be high in the rev range (so exceeding speed limit or keeping in a lower gear) and the acceleration was ok-ish. The roads did not allow any exploration of the handling but I got out thinking "Really, is that it?"
I then had a look at, and a decent drive of an auto, and that was even more disappointing and felt very very underpowered.
In both instances I left the cars without a sense of "wow, I need this RIGHT now". Now, it may be a issue of not having spent enough time with them but there was just no connection.
I have remedied both my NSXs of this power problem by fitting a supercharger....so now I get the best of both worlds...no suped up hot hatch will even have the chance to come close...I can also hold my head high in the face of the modern supercar/sportscar....the blast down A and B roads remains even more shockingly enjoyable...
You do have to drive an NSX longer than 5 mins to appreciate them...
All ex-owners of NSX regret selling them!!!!!!!
SS
SS
silver surfer said:
NSX straight line acceleration and speed was sufficient 10-20 yrs ago but now all manners of VERY modern hot hatches will acchieve sub 6 sec 0-60mph....therefore most drivers nowadays will feel a little underwhelm with the NSX
I've never managed to find this elusive quick hot hatch. My R26.R is way slower, and a Focus RS is around 15-20mph slower at VMax eventssilver surfer said:
but take the NSX onto a B road and you will appreciate it's abilities...the stability, the grip, the accuracy of the steering, the abilty to iron out bumps and camber etc. In this environment, modern Ferraris, Porsches and Lambos had difficulty to shake the NSX off it's tail. The handling of the NSX allows the driver to drive at 9-10/10th of the cars abilities and the feeling is sublime! This with ONLY 280bhp!!!
To be fair, I think that is partly to do with the willingness of a driver to take risks on the public road and/or familiarity with the road in questionI think the most significant driving issue must be the one covered by Tiff Needell's test drive: gearing. So on the road, there's not much chance of exploiting the redline. Do I remember reading that there are different transmissions in US/JDM cars?
Did the 6-speed allows fuller use of 3rd at legal speeds.
Did the 6-speed allows fuller use of 3rd at legal speeds.
B Huey said:
Does being mid engined justify the price tag?
MR2, X19, MGF all did it on a budget.
Eh? No-one's claiming that mid-engine is any significant part of the NSX's original price tag. (The high price tag was down to the clean-sheet design, aluminium everything, etc.) We're just pointing out the numpty's daft belief that weight distribution makes a 944/968 equivalent to an NSX.MR2, X19, MGF all did it on a budget.
XB70 said:
On the other hand, I had a decent drive of a Mercedes S600L Biturbo and was left gobsmacked and more than once just laughed out loud when accelerating at just how quick it was. And contrary to what is commonly thought, it is amazing at how quickly an ABC equipped S-Class can go down B-roads (Active Body Control).
Completely different cars, granted, but maybe a case of horses for courses?
As well as an NSX I also have a LWB AMG 2003 S55L. Same power as the S600, but supercharged V8 instead of turbocharged V12.Completely different cars, granted, but maybe a case of horses for courses?
I love it. However it is such a monster, it's virtually impossible to park anywhere, and the MPG is horrific. Horses for courses really. For a drive in the Highlands, the NSX. For a motorway schlepp, an AMG.
My dream 2 car garage (for when I'm not working in car hire) would be an NSX (must have a 6-speed) and a post-2003 CL55. I would have all bases covered, as far as I'm concerned.
cccscotland said:
For a drive in the Highlands, the NSX. For a motorway schlepp, an AMG.
My dream 2 car garage (for when I'm not working in car hire) would be an NSX (must have a 6-speed) and a post-2003 CL55. I would have all bases covered, as far as I'm concerned.
Dad just took his NSX around Scotland for a visit. Poured with rain but he still loved it. Oddly enough his other car is a 2005 Merc but a CLK.My dream 2 car garage (for when I'm not working in car hire) would be an NSX (must have a 6-speed) and a post-2003 CL55. I would have all bases covered, as far as I'm concerned.
(and his 205 Gentry - a poshed up GTi).
He got the NSX after driving my Mk1 Mr2 which he loves. The NSX has many similarities just on a much much bigger scale and an amazing sense of occasion for me. I have only driven it once but everyone got out of my way which is not something I am used to and I probably only drove it at 30% of it's capabilities. Looking forward to driving it again.
55allgold said:
I think the most significant driving issue must be the one covered by Tiff Needell's test drive: gearing. So on the road, there's not much chance of exploiting the redline. Do I remember reading that there are different transmissions in US/JDM cars?
Did the 6-speed allows fuller use of 3rd at legal speeds.
My understanding is that the early UK cars had a very tall 2nd gear - I'm not sure when this was changedDid the 6-speed allows fuller use of 3rd at legal speeds.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/gearratios.h...
Even with the 6sp, there is a bit of a drop off between 2nd and 3rd, but when at Vmax, it is a good feeling to shift from 3rd-4th-5th remaining in VTEC.
cccscotland said:
As well as an NSX I also have a LWB AMG 2003 S55L. Same power as the S600, but supercharged V8 instead of turbocharged V12.
I love it. However it is such a monster, it's virtually impossible to park anywhere, and the MPG is horrific. Horses for courses really. For a drive in the Highlands, the NSX. For a motorway schlepp, an AMG.
My dream 2 car garage (for when I'm not working in car hire) would be an NSX (must have a 6-speed) and a post-2003 CL55. I would have all bases covered, as far as I'm concerned.
Nice car and have looked at a few. I live in London and (touch wood) not yet had a problem with parking for the barges that I have owned. Many of them have been on back roads, country lanes, mountain passes here and in Europe and I am probably just used to them (size etc) but can be hussled along at a fair rate of knots. If a gap opens up, then the sheer amount of horsepower and torque comes into play and you are slingshoted to the next bend.I love it. However it is such a monster, it's virtually impossible to park anywhere, and the MPG is horrific. Horses for courses really. For a drive in the Highlands, the NSX. For a motorway schlepp, an AMG.
My dream 2 car garage (for when I'm not working in car hire) would be an NSX (must have a 6-speed) and a post-2003 CL55. I would have all bases covered, as far as I'm concerned.
Your comments, and those of SilverSurfer, hit the nail on the head for the NSX in my opinion. Without the "badge" of the Ferrari/Lamborghini/Porsche which are generally taken as given to be aspirational, desirable and 'must have' cars without even driving them. If you managed to get someone into a NSX, and without a B-road type experience as you and SS have described, they would likely get out (like me) and feel a bit disappointed and go purchase a Ferrari etc (when new).
So perhaps the test drives were not long enough to actually see what the NSX could do, both when new and also nowadays, used. As has been pointed out, those who have owned them and sold them miss them but they were able to delve into what it could do rather than be told what it could.
The purchase price when new was asking a lot in terms of "it is a really really really exceptional car, trust us!" (and it probably is from the sounds of it) but, like an interview, it takes a lot to reverse an initial average impression.
Add to that, now that they are only available used, the huge range of choice at the pricepoint of the various types of NSX and there is some stiff competition. Most people will get out of a supercharged CL55 giggling like a loon, both at the thrust and the noise, even after a short drive and the fact that it is really is a sledgehammer in a velvet glove. The NSX looks amazing but what it is capable of is not immediately apparent so do people move onto to something else before finding out? Maybe that is the case.
Just my thoughts.
LuS1fer said:
Could it also be the dealers? A female solicitor friend of mine went to a Honda dealer to test drive (and probably buy) an S2000 but they didn't take her seriously nor give her a test drive so she promptly left and bought a BMW Z3 (cutting her nose off to spite her face in a way...) 
A common problem with performance car dealers (I wanted a Boxster S or a 993 for circa £25k but couldn't find anywhere that would sell me one), and especially with car dealers equipped and trained up to sell hatchbacks and suddenly given a supercar. Regarding the latter, compare trying to get a VXR8 or VX220 test drive with getting a Lotus test drive...I'm not sure this contributes too much to the lack of sales of the NSX though to be honest.
XB70 said:
interesting stuff about underwhelming test drives
I have no doubt that you have identified one good reason why it didn't sell. It may be true that someone on a test drive will not see what the car can do, and thus miss out on its good points. However, they will see what the car doesn't do, which is to make a mundane journey entertaining. I'll leave the owners to say whether that's true or not, but it does fit with the "easy to drive" moniker, and with Tiff's description that once off the track it turns into a saloon again.That's what a lot of drivers seem to like in their BMWs and so on, but is that really what you want in a mid engined junior supercar? If the same drivers took a 348 on the same test route, would they also walk away wondering what the fuss is about, or would the car have felt different enough to leave an impression?
With the fast AMGs, you have that particular Mercedes built-like-a-vault luxury feel, unique to Merc and different to the BMW or Jaguar luxury feel, that is accessible every time you sit in the car. Then you have that ridiculously powerful engine which, while the full performance range of the car can't be enjoyed in many places, the grunt of the engine can be tasted just about everywhere with a squeeze of the right foot.
The things that set the car apart from the norm are easily accessible.
I get the impression that with the NSX, the exceptional experiences aren't so accessible, you need the right bit of road, or a track, to taste the magic.
I remember a Fast Lane (again) road test between an Alfa 145 and the equivalent Civic Type R of the day. Ultimitely, the Civic was a bit quicker, the handling was a bit more polished, the fit and finish quite a bit better, and it was a lot of fun in the conditions where its attributes could be enjoyed. It was a more capable hatchback. The tester liked both cars, but concluded that, to enjoy the Civic, you needed a smooth road with well sighted, medium to fast corners. There the car was fantastic. But to enjoy the Alfa, you just needed a road. Would a similar conclusion apply to the NSX / 348?
EDIT: About the dealer attitude possibility: I'm not so sure that's an issue, I've heard such stories about dealers representing plenty of marques, enough for me to conclude that it's more down to the dealer than the marque they represent.
Edited by Alfanatic on Friday 3rd June 15:12
XB70 said:
Add to that, now that they are only available used, the huge range of choice at the pricepoint of the various types of NSX and there is some stiff competition. Most people will get out of a supercharged CL55 giggling like a loon, both at the thrust and the noise, even after a short drive and the fact that it is really is a sledgehammer in a velvet glove. The NSX looks amazing but what it is capable of is not immediately apparent so do people move onto to something else before finding out? Maybe that is the case.
I agree, my view is that the NSX is a car to have a relationship and the other stuff - DB9, Ferrari, AMG etc. are more one-night stands. Obviously this is a metaphor - I am not advocating mechaphilia, but you get my drift. A lot of supercars are one-trick ponies - the NSX is more like a zweibel (multi-layered, and slowly revealing different levels).
That's a very good point Alfanatic. I agree concerning the CTR and 145 (and this applies to other Alfas as well). A friend of mine who owns an NSX says it does feel rather saloon like and ordinary on the road; very likely this is because it's simply too good at what it does. This is going to sound strange, but I thought the same of my Caterham; it was so capable that at ordinary road speeds it felt too composed and sensible. Even if you upped the pace to what would be extremely fast for most cars down a B road, it still felt stable, composed and relaxed.
RobM77 said:
A friend of mine who owns an NSX says it does feel rather saloon like and ordinary on the road
I don't find that at all - one is sitting low down and you can see the front wings arch in front of you - similar to an Elise. All the time you have that noise right behind you. I've been in an E46 M3 and it felt very different, despite being just as quickRobM77 said:
A friend of mine who owns an NSX says it does feel rather saloon like and ordinary on the road; very likely this is because it's simply too good at what it does.
I suspect that is what LJKS was getting at;LJK Setright said:
That left the Honda NSX, sublimely superior to everything, without any drive to its front wheels, without even a turbocharger to its name. It was exquisitely worked: a whole week of running calculations on a Cray supercomputer went into perfecting the structural stiffness of its stressed sheet aluminium hull; gossamer lattices of forged light alloys formed the most refined of all passive suspensions; the connecting rods within the intricate engine were made out of titanium. There is no need, however, to explore all the car's details; its virtues are already legendary, where those of famous rivals have often proved mythical. Alas, Honda mistakenly offered it as a sports car and ruined the whole effect; what the NSX really amounted to was the world's fastest, safest, and most beautifully made luxury car. It still is.
NoelWatson said:
RobM77 said:
A friend of mine who owns an NSX says it does feel rather saloon like and ordinary on the road
I don't find that at all - one is sitting low down and you can see the front wings arch in front of you - similar to an Elise. All the time you have that noise right behind you. I've been in an E46 M3 and it felt very different, despite being just as quickRegarding the E46 M3, I'm with you there completely. When I drove one I got the feeling that all the suspension and engine work had definitely been done, but that BMW had somehow tried to hide it and make it feel like a 330ci. I'm sure only a car geek would tell the difference between an M3 and a 330ci, it was all that well hidden. Sure, when you floored it you could really feel the extra power, but in my mind the engine's the last thing I think about with a performance car, especially on the road - the feedback and interaction should be there. I actually much preferred my Z4 Coupé to the M3 in terms of a performance feel.
RobM77 said:
LuS1fer said:
Could it also be the dealers? A female solicitor friend of mine went to a Honda dealer to test drive (and probably buy) an S2000 but they didn't take her seriously nor give her a test drive so she promptly left and bought a BMW Z3 (cutting her nose off to spite her face in a way...)
A common problem with performance car dealers (I wanted a Boxster S or a 993 for circa £25k but couldn't find anywhere that would sell me one), and especially with car dealers equipped and trained up to sell hatchbacks and suddenly given a supercar. Regarding the latter, compare trying to get a VXR8 or VX220 test drive with getting a Lotus test drive...I'm not sure this contributes too much to the lack of sales of the NSX though to be honest.
I've also only passengered in a friends car but my overwhelming impression was of a very focussed and incredibly quick car.
The engine sounded amazing and it felt as quick as the 964 RS I owned at the time.
Quite simply in my opinion the car didn't sell because of badge snobbery, nothing else.
The engine sounded amazing and it felt as quick as the 964 RS I owned at the time.
Quite simply in my opinion the car didn't sell because of badge snobbery, nothing else.
Edited by Gunk on Friday 3rd June 20:59
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