Definition of a hot hatch?

[300bhp/ton]

EDIT: Wow, amazed, shocked how is this so difficult. Ok, what I'm after is NOT a subjective opinion on the cars listed, but some sort of rule that would categorize them. You can't just say "not a coupe" unless you can define what is or isn't a coupe. Simples...

Can anyone figure out how to write down a definition of what a hot hatch is or isn't? I can't.

It's easy to assume we know what makes a hot hatch and that we'd know one when we see one. But some vehicles are pretty hard to classify.


Here's a selection of vehicles that must meet or be excluded from any such rule:

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Friday 3rd June 15:02

[zakelwe]

I thought you said snatch there for a moment. It must be this working from home I am doing whilst drinking beer.

Er, aren't some of those coupe's, like the Celica? I wouldn't class them as a hot hatch.

Andy

[denniswise9]

Didn't there used to be an unwritten less than 10 rule on the 0-60 minimum?

I tihnk that was from back in the day before hot hatches started getting so hot.

[300bhp/ton]

zakelwe said:

I thought you said snatch there for a moment. It must be this working from home I am doing whilst drinking beer.

Er, aren't some of those coupe's, like the Celica? I wouldn't class them as a hot hatch.

Andy

Exactly....

But how do you write a definition to exclude them that doesn't exclude ones you want to keep? When does a hatch become a coupe or vice versa?

[Mark-C]

OK - I'll bite ..... surely a hot hatch is the most sporting version of a range of what are basically shopping trolleys. Any attempt to define it by BHP\weight etc will fall down because of how things change so a 205Gti is a hot hatch despite being less powerful than a base 207.

So ... for your examples

Maestro - Yes
Honda - No, it's a little coupe
Mini - grudgingly yes, I suppose so if it's a Cooper S
Rover - no, too big but 200\25 would be
500 Abarth
Scirocco - no, too distinct from the Golf
Imprezza - no, too big
Celica - no, it's a coupe
Cozzy - no, too big
Alfa - not a shopping trolley
Sunbeam - absolutely
Clio V6 - no, too different to standard
Escort Cozzy - not sure about this one
Supra (or whatever) - no, it's a coupe

All very subjective but gave me something other than work to ramble on a bout for 5 minutes

[V88Dicky]

Well first of all... a hot hatch needs to be a hatchback not a coupe, and I'd imagine, FWD, not rear or 4WD.

For example; Clio 172/182 = Yes
Clio V6 255 = No (more of a junior mid-engined supercar)

[kambites]

I'd say the Supra and the Clio are definitely not; the Honda the Celica and the Subaru are debatable; and the rest are.

[300bhp/ton]

Mark-C said:

OK - I'll bite ..... surely a hot hatch is the most sporting version of a range of what are basically shopping trolleys. Any attempt to define it by BHP\weight etc will fall down because of how things change so a 205Gti is a hot hatch despite being less powerful than a base 207.

So ... for your examples

Maestro - Yes
Honda - No, it's a little coupe
Mini - grudgingly yes, I suppose so if it's a Cooper S
Rover - no, too big but 200\25 would be
500 Abarth
Scirocco - no, too distinct from the Golf
Imprezza - no, too big
Celica - no, it's a coupe
Cozzy - no, too big
Alfa - not a shopping trolley
Sunbeam - absolutely
Clio V6 - no, too different to standard
Escort Cozzy - not sure about this one
Supra (or whatever) - no, it's a coupe

All very subjective but gave me something other than work to ramble on a bout for 5 minutes

Ok, don't disagree, but what about a Honda Integra? They did a 5 door variant and with small engines too. So using your definition it must be a hot hatch and not a coupe, but then what is so different from the Integra to the CRX??

I think a similar issue would be faced with a Ford Puma too. Different engines and performance, so sort of fits the definition.

[kambites]

V88Dicky said:

Well first of all... a hot hatch needs to be a hatchback not a coupe, and I'd imagine, FWD, not rear or 4WD.

Even if you take that to be true (which I don't), how do you define "coupe"? I can see no justification for calling the Brera a coupe - to me it's just a rather poorly packaged hatchback, but plenty of people do. Literally, a coupe is a cut down version of a bigger car, but that would include all sorts of strange things.

[V88Dicky]

300bhp/ton said:

Ok, don't disagree, but what about a Honda Integra? They did a 5 door variant and with small engines too. So using your definition it must be a hot hatch and not a coupe, but then what is so different from the Integra to the CRX??

I think a similar issue would be faced with a Ford Puma too. Different engines and performance, so sort of fits the definition.

If it's a coupe bodyshell, then by definition, it's not a hot hatch. Integra and Puma are both coupes, no?

[otolith]

Yes



No, it's a small coupe.



Arguable, I'd be tempted to call it a funny looking coupe.



No, sports saloon.



Yes (but then why deliberate about the mini? )



No.



No, it's an estate car.



No, it's a coupe



No, it's a 3-door family car. Can't think of any modern equivalent to a three door Sierra marketed in that way, they'd all be sold as coupes now.



Coupe.



Yes.



No. Mid engined freak.



No, four wheel drive rally car (and largely a Sierra under the skin)



No, coupe.

All very subjective, I'm sure. For me, it would be a Golf class car or smaller. It would be a high performance version of a car designed primarily for ordinary household transport duties, so strike anything that's a standalone model or part of a range of high performance models. Also strike anything that is designed as a coupe and puts style over practicality. Strike anything that has a radically different drivetrain layout to the rest of the range - longitudinal engine and four wheel drive on a completely different platform, for example, or engine relocated to the middle of the car. Strike anything with four doors and a boot instead of a hatch.

Edited by otolith on Friday 3rd June 14:29

[V88Dicky]

kambites said:

Even if you take that to be true (which I don't), how do you define "coupe"? I can see no justification for calling the Brera a coupe - to me it's just a rather poorly packaged hatchback, but plenty of people do.

A true coupe is a bespoke 2 door body based on a saloon and/or saloon's floorpan.

Although some modern FWD 'coupes' actually have a rear hatch, they are still distinctly different to a traditional hatchback.

[kambites]

The MG is definitely not a saloon - the rear window raises with the boot lid.

[kambites]

V88Dicky said:

A true coupe is a bespoke 2 door body based on a saloon and/or saloon's floorpan.

Although some modern FWD 'coupes' actually have a rear hatch, they are still distinctly different to a traditional hatchback.

Agreed, but to me the Brera is neither of those and is a hatchback. If you call the Brera a coupe what's the new Scirocco? And if the Scirocco is a coupe what's the last generation 3-door Astra?

[300bhp/ton]

V88Dicky said:

Well first of all... a hot hatch needs to be a hatchback not a coupe, and I'd imagine, FWD, not rear or 4WD.

For example; Clio 172/182 = Yes
Clio V6 255 = No (more of a junior mid-engined supercar)

ok, but how do you define what is a coupe and what isn't? That's the question really. And how do you then apply it to other cars?

The aim is so that the definition decides if a car is a hatch or not, so it removes the subjective opinion from it.

[otolith]

kambites said:

The MG is definitely not a saloon - the rear window raises with the boot lid.

It's a 3 box design, though. "Notchback".

[300bhp/ton]

V88Dicky said:

300bhp/ton said:

Ok, don't disagree, but what about a Honda Integra? They did a 5 door variant and with small engines too. So using your definition it must be a hot hatch and not a coupe, but then what is so different from the Integra to the CRX??

I think a similar issue would be faced with a Ford Puma too. Different engines and performance, so sort of fits the definition.

If it's a coupe bodyshell, then by definition, it's not a hot hatch. Integra and Puma are both coupes, no?

Are they? How do we define it as such?

This is an Integra:


And this one:


I admit these ones have lame engines, but they IMO certainly aren't coupes. So why does giving it 3 doors suddenly make it a coupe?

[soxboy]

otolith said:

It would be a high performance version of a 3 or 5 door small hatchback car designed primarily for ordinary household transport duties.

This ^^^^^ (albeit edited slightly). Can we close the thread now please.

[5pen]

'Hot' and 'Hatch' - they are just two simple words so they are never going to define a sub-set of hundreds of differing designs over many years without exception. I'm not sure it really matters. If it's any help I have studied all of the above and I can confirm that they are all definitely cars.

[kambites]

5pen said:

'Hot' and 'Hatch' - they are just two simple words so they are never going to define a sub-set of hundreds of differing designs over many years without exception. I'm not sure it really matters. If it's any help I have studied all of the above and I can confirm that they are all definitely cars.

That's about the best answer you're going to get, I think.

The weird "classes" that we ascribe to cars have never been absolute. Even the term "hatchback" is debatable, let alone when you add something as evocative as "hot" to the front of it.