Definition of a hot hatch?
Discussion
kambites said:
5pen said:
I'll stick to my original answer, but I can't help myself... Why would that exclude the Focus? It's smaller than a Mondeo. Puma? Primarily for household transport duties? Not exactly the first car I'd think of for carrying more than 1 passenger, luggage/children/crap to the tip which are all things that could be considered houshold transport duties.
I wouldn't consider any 3-door car for carrying more than 1 passenger, luggage/children/crap to the tip regularly. 5spen, I'm not arguing, just asking.
But how is something like a Fiat 500, MINI or even a Pug 106 really any bigger or more practical than a Puma?
As for the Focus, well I'd say it's certainly boarding on a middle class hatch. It's heavier and almost as big as a Sierra (wider and taller, just a tad shorter).
And this begs the question
Why do yanks not like hatchbacks?
All these great cars wasted on them, they would rather have a boring old sedan. They even put a boot on the Ford Focus so it sells over there, so turning it into a 1980's Ford Orion.
Now the Ford Orion 1.6i was a blast mind you, it had the XR3 engine in it but skinny tyres. That really was a slag willing to be abused.
Andy
Why do yanks not like hatchbacks?
All these great cars wasted on them, they would rather have a boring old sedan. They even put a boot on the Ford Focus so it sells over there, so turning it into a 1980's Ford Orion.
Now the Ford Orion 1.6i was a blast mind you, it had the XR3 engine in it but skinny tyres. That really was a slag willing to be abused.
Andy
Thesaint01708 said:
A hot hatchback = B sector, FWD hatchback with extra 'garnish' compared to its standard model, and quicker to 60 than 9 seconds.
anything that looked sporty but didnt do the sub 9 seconds should be called luke warm hatch (Nova 1.3SR, corsa SXi etc)
Or an original Golf GTI..... anything that looked sporty but didnt do the sub 9 seconds should be called luke warm hatch (Nova 1.3SR, corsa SXi etc)
300bhp/ton said:
Exactly.
5spen, I'm not arguing, just asking.
But how is something like a Fiat 500, MINI or even a Pug 106 really any bigger or more practical than a Puma?
As for the Focus, well I'd say it's certainly boarding on a middle class hatch. It's heavier and almost as big as a Sierra (wider and taller, just a tad shorter).
Well for a hot hatch you need rear entry. Sort of like 0x0 but in the 1980's way5spen, I'm not arguing, just asking.
But how is something like a Fiat 500, MINI or even a Pug 106 really any bigger or more practical than a Puma?
As for the Focus, well I'd say it's certainly boarding on a middle class hatch. It's heavier and almost as big as a Sierra (wider and taller, just a tad shorter).
Andy
300bhp/ton said:
Johnboy Mac said:
I think the answer is rather simple.
Any car that can compete with the Golf GTi of '76>, provided it's based on a basic hatchback production model, be similar in size & function to the Golf and reasonably priced, have a performance advantage both in power & handling over the car it's built on and a few modest visible design 'go faster' features.
Why a Golf though? I know common folklore often cites it as the first, but it wasn't really. And certainly not for the terming.Any car that can compete with the Golf GTi of '76>, provided it's based on a basic hatchback production model, be similar in size & function to the Golf and reasonably priced, have a performance advantage both in power & handling over the car it's built on and a few modest visible design 'go faster' features.
Edited by Johnboy Mac on Friday 3rd June 15:23
Has to be based on ether a Golf/Focus or Fiesta/Polo sized motor, no super Mini's, no saloon sized hatches - a Rover SD1 isn't a hot hatch.
The body has to be a few plastic skirts and a spoiler away from exactly the same as the 'normal' ones to keep the insurance sensible and the costs down BUT has to be different enough to make it noticeable to my Mum (you can choose your own yardstick for this) I.E. a MK1 Clio 16v my Mum would call a Gti (I know, I know, she still calls her Dyson a Hoover) but a Clio RSI isn't wild enough.
The drivetrain has to be the same as the normal one, in fact it HAS to be FWD IMHO. 4WD 2.0 turbos like Intergrale's and Escort Cosworths are Rally Reps, to fast, too gripy and too expensive to be Hot hatches
As are RWD Escorts, HSR Chevettes & Lotus Talbots and 3dr Cosworths.
Sub 10s 0-60, but not sub 6s.
Has to be affordable for the 20 something single man with a decent job.
Has to be as desirable as "one hour with a drunk and high Megan Fox - no questions asked" to a normal 16/17 year old Lad desperately trying to pass their test and get their first car.
But most of all, it HAS to be practical, comfortable and reliable as it's a 'normal' car 80%-90% of the time. The Golf GTi is the best of this balance, and MK4 aside always has been.
The body has to be a few plastic skirts and a spoiler away from exactly the same as the 'normal' ones to keep the insurance sensible and the costs down BUT has to be different enough to make it noticeable to my Mum (you can choose your own yardstick for this) I.E. a MK1 Clio 16v my Mum would call a Gti (I know, I know, she still calls her Dyson a Hoover) but a Clio RSI isn't wild enough.
The drivetrain has to be the same as the normal one, in fact it HAS to be FWD IMHO. 4WD 2.0 turbos like Intergrale's and Escort Cosworths are Rally Reps, to fast, too gripy and too expensive to be Hot hatches
As are RWD Escorts, HSR Chevettes & Lotus Talbots and 3dr Cosworths.
Sub 10s 0-60, but not sub 6s.
Has to be affordable for the 20 something single man with a decent job.
Has to be as desirable as "one hour with a drunk and high Megan Fox - no questions asked" to a normal 16/17 year old Lad desperately trying to pass their test and get their first car.
But most of all, it HAS to be practical, comfortable and reliable as it's a 'normal' car 80%-90% of the time. The Golf GTi is the best of this balance, and MK4 aside always has been.
Edited by P-Jay on Friday 3rd June 15:27
Edited by P-Jay on Friday 3rd June 15:32
kambites said:
I wouldn't consider any 3-door car for carrying more than 1 passenger, luggage/children/crap to the tip regularly.
An EP3 model Civic Type-R will carry three passengers in the back and does a convincing impression of a (bread) van with the rear seats folded flat. Eminently practical!zakelwe said:
And this begs the question
Why do yanks not like hatchbacks?
All these great cars wasted on them, they would rather have a boring old sedan. They even put a boot on the Ford Focus so it sells over there, so turning it into a 1980's Ford Orion.
Now the Ford Orion 1.6i was a blast mind you, it had the XR3 engine in it but skinny tyres. That really was a slag willing to be abused.
Andy
I think there are several answers to this:Why do yanks not like hatchbacks?
All these great cars wasted on them, they would rather have a boring old sedan. They even put a boot on the Ford Focus so it sells over there, so turning it into a 1980's Ford Orion.
Now the Ford Orion 1.6i was a blast mind you, it had the XR3 engine in it but skinny tyres. That really was a slag willing to be abused.
Andy
1. They do have hatches and many small cars called compacts.
2. The terrain is not becoming to small cars, as a rule parking spaces are big and the roads wide. There is no need to have a small car.
3. Distances, it's not uncommon for an American to drive 50 miles to dinner and back. It's just so easy with wide straight freeways, even with the old 55mph limit you'd still do the drive in under an hour. In the UK and Europe 20 miles could take just as long to travel.
4. Roads and mpg, with big roads and the grid system small engines often aren't that great on fuel. For example a Focus SVT (it was rebadged in the UK as an ST170
) had no better mpg ratings than a V8 pony car.5. You could also argue why does Europe and specifically the UK have such a perverted fascination with hatches? Why don't we have more saloons and coupes, think of all the great cars we're missing out on.
Some more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_hatch
and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_Compact
Johnboy Mac said:
Well, 'folklore', the press & owners state that there was nothing to touch a Golf GTi at the time and for many years after, right up to the end of the Mk2 and I'd agree too. Sales figures would no doubt back that up too. Even the current Mk6 by all accounts is top of the class.
It certainly wouldn't be top of my class...Edited by Johnboy Mac on Friday 3rd June 15:23
otolith said:
An EP3 model Civic Type-R will carry three passengers in the back and does a convincing impression of a (bread) van with the rear seats folded flat. Eminently practical!
once you have an EP3 with 4 adults in you will have performance ( and brakes ) that feel strangley like an old 850 Mini.DO NOT attempt to be in triple figures coming down a slip road to a roundabout unless to KNOW the path is clear as you wont be stopping for anything as trivial as traffic/red lights/domes in the middle of the road.
Just to throw a spanner in the current 'floor pan determined' definition - to me hot hatch is another way of saying 'fast and cheap'. Hot hatches are supposed to be affordable performance. On that basis I'd say anything less than ~ £20k and anything sub 9 seconds to 60. I realise I'm excluding the current Golf Gti but I'm not sure that how the boot opens really sums up 'hot hatch' for me.
JohnnyRims said:
Just to throw a spanner in the current 'floor pan determined' definition - to me hot hatch is another way of saying 'fast and cheap'. Hot hatches are supposed to be affordable performance. On that basis I'd say anything less than ~ £20k and anything sub 9 seconds to 60. I realise I'm excluding the current Golf Gti but I'm not sure that how the boot opens really sums up 'hot hatch' for me.
But you are including things like the MX5, with that definition.otolith said:
kambites said:
I wouldn't consider any 3-door car for carrying more than 1 passenger, luggage/children/crap to the tip regularly.
An EP3 model Civic Type-R will carry three passengers in the back and does a convincing impression of a (bread) van with the rear seats folded flat. Eminently practical!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff