When did new cars become so expensive?
Discussion
The Wookie said:
We got a pretty good deal with a bit of knowledge and almost no effort, but once we'd dismissed the parting shot money makers like 'paint treatment' and tyre insurance at 500 quid a go, the whole thing did make me realise how many people must get absolutely mugged when they walk into these dealers on the basis of deferred cost with finance deals. After all 'it's only another 20 pounds a month to have sat nav'
On the Golf I just bought, it took about 3 hours to do the deal. Say 30 mins for the test drive / look at car. 2hrs 25 mins to try to sell us finance, protection packages, GAP etc etc. 5 mins, when the sales manager stepped in as the showroom was closing and they hadn't sold a car that day, to actually do the deal.Even after we'd reached agreement and signed, they still offered us a further discount to take the finance package.
mikele pirelli said:
You've got all the answers eh ?
So, to prevent this sliding into a tit for tat...
Fair enough, as the thread was primarily concerned with car
finance,
It wasn't me that suggested buying property in this thread, but it does seem a better idea than sinking a chunk of money directly into a heavily depreciating asset. It's having your cake and eating it.So, to prevent this sliding into a tit for tat...
Fair enough, as the thread was primarily concerned with car
finance,
. To be fair it had the desired effect (I moved out)
tbox. The list price in 1995? Fifteen grand-ish. The replacement Focus was cheaper IIRC.I agree with a lot of people on what is said above, however the funny thing is that bike prices for superbikes still seem rather reasonable. It's still less than £12k for a 1000cc superbike, list price. In the old days it was just less than £10k and that is 10 years ago. So not much increase. But then percentage wise it is? I am not sure.
The thing that shocked me most recently was the Golf R. When you start adding up the extra's as well you are getting close to £35000. £35k for a Golf. It's no wonder their advertising is saying that is all you need in life rather than it being reliable. It has to be all you need once you have paid for it.
On here people often come up with "but you can buy a second hand XXXXX" for that. And then people respond saying you cannot compare new to second hand, with which I agree. However such is the cost of new cars it is no wonder people are comparing and contrasting and seeing the big picture.
It all seems to be down to not having to stump the money up front, ie loan or finance or company paying for it. If you removed all that then you would be able to hear the pips squeak I think.
Andy
The thing that shocked me most recently was the Golf R. When you start adding up the extra's as well you are getting close to £35000. £35k for a Golf. It's no wonder their advertising is saying that is all you need in life rather than it being reliable. It has to be all you need once you have paid for it.
On here people often come up with "but you can buy a second hand XXXXX" for that. And then people respond saying you cannot compare new to second hand, with which I agree. However such is the cost of new cars it is no wonder people are comparing and contrasting and seeing the big picture.
It all seems to be down to not having to stump the money up front, ie loan or finance or company paying for it. If you removed all that then you would be able to hear the pips squeak I think.
Andy
mikele pirelli said:
That's OK Dev, I understand what you're saying. I don't want to hijack
the thread completely with this topic.
If you're interested in starting a new thread on this kind of thing,
across the UK, I'll contribute the Glasgow scenario...
( My wife was a property manager with a major Glasgow property company, doing
factoring amongst high value City Centre developments, amongst
other things )
I wasn't really having a go... just trying to emphasise that for
£ 20 k here, you don't get very much. Regardless, of how downbeat
the national press portrays us to be.
As far as financing a car goes, yes, BUY TO LET may still be an
option. But like everywhere else, it's location, location, etc
Apologies (but the thread subject isn't really a serious one anyway the thread completely with this topic.
If you're interested in starting a new thread on this kind of thing,
across the UK, I'll contribute the Glasgow scenario...
( My wife was a property manager with a major Glasgow property company, doing
factoring amongst high value City Centre developments, amongst
other things )
I wasn't really having a go... just trying to emphasise that for
£ 20 k here, you don't get very much. Regardless, of how downbeat
the national press portrays us to be.
As far as financing a car goes, yes, BUY TO LET may still be an
option. But like everywhere else, it's location, location, etc
). I think your experience is in a different universe to where Groak operates. He deals in £20K properties (flats and shops) that let for £400 ish a month to a certain kind (and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way) of tenant. He posts regularly in the "how far will house prices fall thread" and I only know about him what he posts there. However I do also know someone who operates in a largish town in the South in a similar way - they don't do contracts etc because you can't enforce them against the kind of people they deal with. They lose out sometimes, but the margins are so great that that doesn't matter too much.
Edited by Deva Link on Tuesday 7th June 22:59
Only ever bought a car on finance once. It felt like a millstone round my neck for 3 years, and that wasn't even new. These days, we save up and once we can afford something, we buy it. The cars we own may be a little older, but at least they're ours and we don't have any outgoings each month.
MikeyBe said:
Only ever bought a car on finance once. It felt like a millstone round my neck for 3 years, and that wasn't even new. These days, we save up and once we can afford something, we buy it. The cars we own may be a little older, but at least they're ours and we don't have any outgoings each month.
The issue with most people is "I want it now" financial common sense doesn't come in...StottyZr said:
I'm going to agree with the above and say its the finance deals. I've been an apprentice for the last 2yrs 6months and I know the other apprentices are on the exact same wage as me(no overtime availabel either) the apprentices down south all drive new cars on finance deals.
One example had a Fiesta Zetec he was paying £240 a month with balloon payment at the end. But once the 2 years were up he sold the fiesta back to Ford at an agreed price (agreed when he bought the car) and traded it up for a Fiesta diesel (looked like a mini Focus ST) now paying £300/month for this car.
To anybody from the outside he would look pretty well off, but he never owns his cars. The system is a bit of a house of cards.
Shockingly enough his recent facebook posts have been a what car, VXR Nuremburg, Focus RS, Impreza... So I asked what job had he secured (leaving apprenticeship) to find he hasn't he just wants an upgrade. I can't help but wonder how financially ruined he would be if he bought a new finance car then couldn't afford the finance because he didn't secure a job.
Does it try war criminals?One example had a Fiesta Zetec he was paying £240 a month with balloon payment at the end. But once the 2 years were up he sold the fiesta back to Ford at an agreed price (agreed when he bought the car) and traded it up for a Fiesta diesel (looked like a mini Focus ST) now paying £300/month for this car.
To anybody from the outside he would look pretty well off, but he never owns his cars. The system is a bit of a house of cards.
Shockingly enough his recent facebook posts have been a what car, VXR Nuremburg, Focus RS, Impreza... So I asked what job had he secured (leaving apprenticeship) to find he hasn't he just wants an upgrade. I can't help but wonder how financially ruined he would be if he bought a new finance car then couldn't afford the finance because he didn't secure a job.
The Wookie said:
Out of interest, did you try any haggling on the finance? The gf bought a new Cooper D Cabrio just before Christmas and they came in with a 14.9% APR finance deal, full settlement with no balloon payment at the end. I nearly choked on my coffee and told them we'd found a 7.5% deal on the interweb. Literally 10 keystrokes later and it was suddenly 7.4%... Knocked a significant chunk off the monthly payments with no haggling at all.
Actually, it does highlight the fact that they were very keen to sell us a car and easy to chip on price for various aspects. They came in offering us a part-ex value a couple of hundred quid above what we'd expected to sell the old one for and they put another 500 quid on top with minimal haggling, and they lobbed in about 650 quid's worth of extras that we probably would have paid for anyway.
We got a pretty good deal with a bit of knowledge and almost no effort, but once we'd dismissed the parting shot money makers like 'paint treatment' and tyre insurance at 500 quid a go, the whole thing did make me realise how many people must get absolutely mugged when they walk into these dealers on the basis of deferred cost with finance deals. After all 'it's only another 20 pounds a month to have sat nav'
TBH, no as i was just wanting ball park figures to see what was involved.Actually, it does highlight the fact that they were very keen to sell us a car and easy to chip on price for various aspects. They came in offering us a part-ex value a couple of hundred quid above what we'd expected to sell the old one for and they put another 500 quid on top with minimal haggling, and they lobbed in about 650 quid's worth of extras that we probably would have paid for anyway.
We got a pretty good deal with a bit of knowledge and almost no effort, but once we'd dismissed the parting shot money makers like 'paint treatment' and tyre insurance at 500 quid a go, the whole thing did make me realise how many people must get absolutely mugged when they walk into these dealers on the basis of deferred cost with finance deals. After all 'it's only another 20 pounds a month to have sat nav'
Its a lot of pennies for what is in effect poverty spec cooper S!
I can get an R32 or Ed30 golf for 1/3 less a month and it will have all the options ticked, leather, air con, nav sunroof etc etc. and as these cars (golf mkV) are basically still 'new' things will last on them, so i am not taking a risk with a rust box or somehting etc, its just now 'ooh! shiny!'
The killer is when you start working out running costs, of new 1.6 t mini, over a 4 year old 2.0t Golf or 3.2 R32, with cost of loan and fuel and tax, all making it work out oddly similar a month!
however the big diff is after 4 years i own the car and can sell it and get a bit of a lump sum for the next one etc, so its a smaller loan next time etc. this is what interests me most, or if i want to keeo the car after the loan is finished, there is no balloon etc, its just running costs etc.
Rick_1138 said:
TBH, no as i was just wanting ball park figures to see what was involved.
Its a lot of pennies for what is in effect poverty spec cooper S!
I can get an R32 or Ed30 golf for 1/3 less a month and it will have all the options ticked, leather, air con, nav sunroof etc etc. and as these cars (golf mkV) are basically still 'new' things will last on them, so i am not taking a risk with a rust box or somehting etc, its just now 'ooh! shiny!'
The killer is when you start working out running costs, of new 1.6 t mini, over a 4 year old 2.0t Golf or 3.2 R32, with cost of loan and fuel and tax, all making it work out oddly similar a month!
however the big diff is after 4 years i own the car and can sell it and get a bit of a lump sum for the next one etc, so its a smaller loan next time etc. this is what interests me most, or if i want to keeo the car after the loan is finished, there is no balloon etc, its just running costs etc.
oddly enough, I did this recently but was comparing the MK6 2.0t with the older MK5 2.0t Its a lot of pennies for what is in effect poverty spec cooper S!
I can get an R32 or Ed30 golf for 1/3 less a month and it will have all the options ticked, leather, air con, nav sunroof etc etc. and as these cars (golf mkV) are basically still 'new' things will last on them, so i am not taking a risk with a rust box or somehting etc, its just now 'ooh! shiny!'
The killer is when you start working out running costs, of new 1.6 t mini, over a 4 year old 2.0t Golf or 3.2 R32, with cost of loan and fuel and tax, all making it work out oddly similar a month!
however the big diff is after 4 years i own the car and can sell it and get a bit of a lump sum for the next one etc, so its a smaller loan next time etc. this is what interests me most, or if i want to keeo the car after the loan is finished, there is no balloon etc, its just running costs etc.
Payment wise both cars were approxmately the same, but at the end of two years the older car would be fully paid versus a big ballon outstanding on the newer one.
Thus I saved £10k by choosing the MK5.
(I admit now it wasnt new, if you want new by all means go for it)
The only reason i looked at new is my mum has done the mini on pcp for her last 3 cars, and it works well for them.
And i was looking at what i could get for the same a month as the pcp deal over 4 years etc, she was paying about £240 a month for hers (a cooper) so i worked out what that got me over a 3/4 year loan compared with what i would be for the cooper s (£340 a month for 4 years = £16k!!) so for that i could get a new mini but still have about £5K outstanding, or get a Golf GTI\R32 for about £14-£15K over 4 years, or even 5 as i would be keeping the car for a while.
but after the 4 years, i have no outstanding balance, and a car that still works very well etc, given VW does have good build quality and i believe a 12 year corrosion warranty??
Its just a case of can i justify the fuel bills and extra Road tax of the R32, i.e. would i be hating the car in 6 months.
I dont spend a lot on other things, dont smoke, hardly drink, my main outgoings are petrol and dvd's lol, well and the rent obviously.
And i was looking at what i could get for the same a month as the pcp deal over 4 years etc, she was paying about £240 a month for hers (a cooper) so i worked out what that got me over a 3/4 year loan compared with what i would be for the cooper s (£340 a month for 4 years = £16k!!) so for that i could get a new mini but still have about £5K outstanding, or get a Golf GTI\R32 for about £14-£15K over 4 years, or even 5 as i would be keeping the car for a while.
but after the 4 years, i have no outstanding balance, and a car that still works very well etc, given VW does have good build quality and i believe a 12 year corrosion warranty??
Its just a case of can i justify the fuel bills and extra Road tax of the R32, i.e. would i be hating the car in 6 months.
I dont spend a lot on other things, dont smoke, hardly drink, my main outgoings are petrol and dvd's lol, well and the rent obviously.
Chicane-UK said:
I made a thread a while ago asking how people paid for their new cars as I simply couldn't work out the maths in my mind. I work a decent job, have comparatively low outgoings and own two cars outright, both of which are 15-17 years old. I've occasionally looked into a newish or even new car and every time end up staggering backwards from the computer when I see just what it'd cost to put myself in a new car.
Putting aside the monthly payments (essentially £250-£300/month for anything HALF decent) then there is the large deposit AND the balloon payment at the end. It must be that this is how most people finance their cars but I just don't understand it! I see young girls in their early 20's driving around in 17k Mini Coopers and simply can't work out how they afford it!
I guess I'll never get a new car. As much as I want the convenience and reliability and comfort, I just don't think they're worth it!
I reckon finance must play a large part in new car purchases these days and probably has helped push prices up or at least support them.Putting aside the monthly payments (essentially £250-£300/month for anything HALF decent) then there is the large deposit AND the balloon payment at the end. It must be that this is how most people finance their cars but I just don't understand it! I see young girls in their early 20's driving around in 17k Mini Coopers and simply can't work out how they afford it!
I guess I'll never get a new car. As much as I want the convenience and reliability and comfort, I just don't think they're worth it!
But it never really has made economic sense to buy a car new - it's just a luxury choice. Fine if you have the money and want to treat yourself but a financially bad idea otherwise.
Lucas Ayde said:
Chicane-UK said:
I made a thread a while ago asking how people paid for their new cars as I simply couldn't work out the maths in my mind. I work a decent job, have comparatively low outgoings and own two cars outright, both of which are 15-17 years old. I've occasionally looked into a newish or even new car and every time end up staggering backwards from the computer when I see just what it'd cost to put myself in a new car.
Putting aside the monthly payments (essentially £250-£300/month for anything HALF decent) then there is the large deposit AND the balloon payment at the end. It must be that this is how most people finance their cars but I just don't understand it! I see young girls in their early 20's driving around in 17k Mini Coopers and simply can't work out how they afford it!
I guess I'll never get a new car. As much as I want the convenience and reliability and comfort, I just don't think they're worth it!
I reckon finance must play a large part in new car purchases these days and probably has helped push prices up or at least support them.Putting aside the monthly payments (essentially £250-£300/month for anything HALF decent) then there is the large deposit AND the balloon payment at the end. It must be that this is how most people finance their cars but I just don't understand it! I see young girls in their early 20's driving around in 17k Mini Coopers and simply can't work out how they afford it!
I guess I'll never get a new car. As much as I want the convenience and reliability and comfort, I just don't think they're worth it!
But it never really has made economic sense to buy a car new - it's just a luxury choice. Fine if you have the money and want to treat yourself but a financially bad idea otherwise.
Of course it's going to be cheaper to buy an old car, especially if you can take care of it largely yourself and you're not dependant on it so it can be off the road now and again. But if you've got to pay someone to look after it, then anything of any significance that goes wrong is going to write it off. If you're in a job where you don't get paid if you don't turn up, then breakdowns and unreliability can work out expensive.
What I think is a bit bonkers is many people buy cars at 3yrs old as they're coming off company leases etc, and then keep them for 3-4years. That's probably the worst thing you could do as the car continues to depreciate quite quickly and you're likely to pick up all sorts of repair cost, plus a lot of cars need a very big service, cam belt change, ATF if it's an auto etc etc at 4yrs which many private buyers don't realise.
If you amortised the whole cost of ownership over years 3-6 then a PCP on the right new car can make sense. Obviously if you buy a £25K Golf and put £10K of extras on it, then that's going to cost you, but if you're sensible then there are some good deals on new cars - manufacturers are keen to keep shifting 'em.
When the scrappage scheme was running new was fairly effective for my father's Fabia. The £2,500 off brought the price down to £8,500 for a car that should give a decade of relatively trouble free motoring. If you work out the cost at £850 per year and compared two year old cars (from dealers) it wasn't stupidly more expensive.
Similarly Fiat Pandas work out quite reasonable. (500s do not).
But it's only at the very bottom end of the market where this worked.
Similarly Fiat Pandas work out quite reasonable. (500s do not).
But it's only at the very bottom end of the market where this worked.
It could be argued we've had many years of cars being undervalued and it is only now that prices are starting to get to what may be regarded as their natural point.
For example, in 1993 (i.e. 18 years ago) my mum bought a brand new Clio 1.2 Oasis. 4 speed, manual windows, no c/l but had a good stereo and a sunroof! Its list price was £7500, think got it for £7250. 10 years later in 2002 when that was going to start costing money (heater matrix IIRC) mum got another one, again 1.2 but new shape with electric windows, remote locking, 4 airbags - delivery mileage £5995.
Anyway, my point being that taking a Clio at £12k, a 60% increase in 18 years isn't bad when compared with other goods, the house market and wages.
(although just looked on AT and you can get one for £8600 which is good value, and also shows my argument to be rubbish!!)
For example, in 1993 (i.e. 18 years ago) my mum bought a brand new Clio 1.2 Oasis. 4 speed, manual windows, no c/l but had a good stereo and a sunroof! Its list price was £7500, think got it for £7250. 10 years later in 2002 when that was going to start costing money (heater matrix IIRC) mum got another one, again 1.2 but new shape with electric windows, remote locking, 4 airbags - delivery mileage £5995.
Anyway, my point being that taking a Clio at £12k, a 60% increase in 18 years isn't bad when compared with other goods, the house market and wages.
(although just looked on AT and you can get one for £8600 which is good value, and also shows my argument to be rubbish!!)
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