RE: Lotus Poised To 'Twist Key' On Esprit's New V8

[MarkoNoTVR]

Skyedriver said:

I remember when TVR decided to make their own engines......................

............by (allegedly) farting about with the design someone else did for them so they didn't infringe IP.

If Lotus do it from the ground up all by themselves, it should be in much better stead. Not to mention the cash that Proton could put into it, which is probably many multiples greater than TVR could have spent developing an entire car (not that they did a bad job with the last lot, my T2 was great).

[Oilchange]

The Lotus engine in my Esprit is still going strong at 115,000 miles. Pulls like a train and it's been souped up a little so is pushing out more than the 265hp it exited the factory with...

I suspect Lotus haven't had this kind of funding for a long while so even if they had the know-how, they couldn't afford it.

As for the Lotus V8, it was a great engine, designed and built on a peanut budget with not enough testing due to lack of funding. Attached to a Renault gearbox limited to 350 hp by Renault themselves.
Now they have money they can do what they need to make a great engine and they have a great deal of knowledge in the field.

Also, it can't really be compared to the Ferrari or Mclaren as its 1/3 cheaper...

[Fire99]

I love Lotus but the powers at the top just don't fill me with any confidence. There is a worrying overtone of a certain Russian who liked English sports cars.

The 'on paper' spec sounds really good, but i'd have more confidence with someone other than Baher at the helm.

[Esprit]

I think the big thing in its favour is that with the British pound in the toilet, the UK is now a very competitive place to develop this kind of car.

I applaud Lotus for its ambition, and knowing the engineering prowess they have behind them, I've little doubt they can achieve a credible competitor to the 458, forthcoming Gallardo replacement and the MP4/12C.

Lotus is one of those brands everyone loves to lambast. It wasn't THAT long ago where the Esprit was considered a superior car in many ways to Ferrari's 348/355 and the Porsche 993 Turbo. For some reason, people seem to think that Lotuses have always been small trackday cars and have never been brilliant quality (compare an '80s Esprit to an '80s Lamborghini or Ferrari and you'll see the Esprit was LEAGUES ahead in terms of quality).

I think it's good that Lotus is giving things a nudge here.... they were only on the slow slide to obscurity before. The Elise was ageing, a brand new Elise was only going to trickle sales as it'd already filled its own market niche. It had ZERO motorsport involvement... it was on track to become another Ginetta.... it would have collapsed.... at least someone's standing up for the brand and willing to take it forward.... I know that in another 3-4 years, god willing, I'll be one of those signing my name on an Esprit order form.

[Mr Whippy]

RWD cossie wil said:

Mr Whippy said:

I for one, want to be optimistic.

In a world where lots of manufacturers are being complete gays (BMW I'm looking at you), it's nice to see Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari and Lotus going forward with big power big capacity NA motors... them applying these engines and managing to make them work, and be devastatingly effective, proves that resorting to turbo's in high end sports cars ISN'T essential.

Just a shame it's only Porsche retaining the manual gearbox though

Didn't Lotus say their full range would be DSG? Sad gits.

Dave

What's wrong with turbos? Find a better way to get a huge gain in torque & power for a relativly small trade off, and you will be a rich man!

I suppose you would turn down an F40 or 911 GT2 then?

Soft deliveries. Non-linear deliveries with input vs time vs rpm.

Nothing wrong with them, but using them when you would otherwise want to use a bigger NA engine but take preference over cheapness, then it's a bit naff.

Dave

[nouze]

Oh my fking gizzle, this is how mp12-9865487seee should have looked like. I'm in luv

[peter450]

Max_Torque said:

When you consider the "sea change" in attitude of car buyers towards Co2 / fuel economy over the last year or so, i can't see this changing at all over the next 5 years (in fact, as fuel and tax are likely to increase for "gas guslers" thinks are only going to get worse in this respect.

Compare a BMW 1M and a AML V8 Vantage, both cars get to 60 in round about 4.7sec, but the BMW manages 224g/km vs 299 for the Vantage............. (thats a massive difference even today, in 5years? well, who knows, but it's unlikely to be "ignorable" by most

Edited by Max_Torque on Wednesday 22 June 21:02

This sea change is driven entirely legislation, unless legislation, creates a situation were a significant price/tax differance occurs based on the CO2, i think most people into these cars will happily ignore it

The only reason everyone bangs on about C02 in cars is because it has a huge impact on company car tax bands, and these people make up a siginifciant portion of new car buyers, it's also starting to become a major driver in road tax costs etc

I think a lot is going to come down to how much an exemption low volume makers can get, in relation to there CO2 outputs, in the future, if CO2 taxes continue to get more and more punitive, this will have a major impact on cars like the AM V8

It's one of the reasons i think why Ferrari are moving there cars into the more and more expensive money bracket, as the impact at this end of the market of punitative taxation is likely to be limited, unless the taxes are very very high, the impact at the 911 price range of the market though is likely to be much much higher

Edited by peter450 on Thursday 23 June 00:44

[Hedgerley]

Fire99 said:

I love Lotus but the powers at the top just don't fill me with any confidence. There is a worrying overtone of a certain Russian who liked English sports cars.

Oh give me a break. Comparing the current Lotus management team (20 guys from the upper echelons of Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, AMG, GM etc. all with gold plated CVs) to a 23 year old multimillionaire Russian oligarch who was looking for a plaything is farcical. What planet are you on?

These guys have already pushed through planning permission and started work on a major factory extension, have just completed a £3m revamp of their test track and garage facilities to FIA standards, have produced a stunning customer track car (T125) in collaboration with Cosworth and sold more than half of them already at $1m each.

They produced a range of brand new concepts in record time and have listened intently to the market reaction. They decided it needed its own engine, that the Elan was to close to the Esprit so delayed it until the end of the Evora lifecycle, have confirmed the Evora will evolve into hotter versions and a cabriolet, have confirmed that they are NOT deserting the Elise/Exige segment and have even confirmed the 211 will continue!

Now they release details of a stunning new engine and have confirmed the development programme for the Esprit is on track. We could argue about the sense of sponsoring Renault F1 but you have to give them for credit for going back to Le Mans (and doing pretty well) and expanding into GP2, GP3 and Indycar.

And along the way they raised £400m in development funding from a bunch of tight assed banks and had their business plan signed off by the parent company, probably the most benign owner Lotus have ever had.

ALL IN 18 MONTHS. That's mighty impressive in my view and they deserve a huge amount of credit. So quit carping!

By the way, the Elise business case called for 700 units a year over a 7 year lifecycle. It has sold well over 30,000 in 15 years so far. That to me is a remarkable success story (thank you MJK). And as for the Evora, yes its probably a bit pricey but my god what a car. Just watch Steve Sutcliffe's video test on the Autocar web site.

I guess I must admit to be biased, being on my second Esprit V8 and having test driven various Elises and the Evora. And I've been a fanatic since I was 15. And I will be in the market for the new Esprit in 2013. So there.

Rant over. I need a beer and a lie down.

Edited by Hedgerley on Thursday 23 June 01:10

[detomaso]

Dagnut said:

Every single thread on here has detractors...doesn't matter if if Jesus himself shat out a 30k supercar in solid gold that ran on enthusiasm....someone would find something to complain about

Eurgh...gold

[GKP]

Since the early 1970's up to 2000 Elite, Eclat, Excel and Esprit all had Lotus designed and built engines. This isn't a new path for them.

[AV12]

PieterA said:

mikEsprit said:

Kong said:

MASSIVE, MASSIVE respect to Lotus for designing their own lightweight N/A V8.

I'm guessing either Toyota wouldn't let Lotus use the LFA engine or it wouldn't fit in the car? Otherwise it would have been perfect for the Esprit, similarly powerful, lightweight and already proven.

Agree. I really hope they do this. The pictures even look better to me now, haha.

It was or is impossible for Toyota/Lexus to do so. They would not only upset current customers of the LFA, it would also ridicule its hefty price tag. So no way back there.

The Lexus V8 from the IS-F?

[anonymous-user]

I fear Greece will have a booming economy long before Lotus deliver a Ferrari/McLaren specification at a price £50,000 cheaper than they cost today!

In the meantime I hope they've got a viable revamp of Evora in the pipeline if they're planning on getting many cars into customers hands.

[Bash Brannigan]

zebedee said:

Bash Brannigan said:

Frankly if you look at the blinkered arrogance of many car producers who think that they have a realistic chance against large companies then yes, I bloody do think that. Given your comments on other people's posts then I can only assume that you are taking these sceptical ideas somewhat personally.

The disappointing sales record of Lotus is unlikely to be solved by another fantastic handling car which goes head to head with the products of a luxury conglomerate. Frankly, the general (non PHing) public want something in which they can show off for their £125 grand, and as Lotus is currently most famous for a lightweight, stripped back sports car which costs a fifth of the new Esprit then this is hardly going to be top of their lists is it?

Good grief my arse.

A luxury conglomerate? I'd rather buy my sports car from a sportscar manufacturer please. Lotus is changing its game, they aren't trying to sell the new cars to their existing customers and have expressly stated that. Forgive me for supporting and being a little bit excited about the continued rebirth of one of my favourite motoring manufacturers, a company that was almost core to Pistonheads ideals when I first came to this site.

I don't think Lotus are particularly interested in shifting a mass market number of cars either, I would be surprised if they are disappointed by sales of the Elise over the years, sales of the Evora are disappointing because it is such a great car but appears to be overlooked by everyone. As for being too expensive, have you seen the price of the BMW 6 series, makes the Evora look a bargain!

I genuinely don't understand why a company would invest such a huge chunk of cash in new developing multiple new platforms and yet would not be 'interested in shifting a mass market number of cars'. Assuming that the £800 million that big Ron spent on the MC12 is representative of the development costs of a supercar (looking at the pre-existing level of technological knowledge possessed by McLaren, then this seems to be on the cheap side if anything) then do you really think that Proton has spent all that money just to sell a few cars a year to petrol heads?

£125 grand is such a phenomenal ammount of money to spend on a depreciating asset. I genuinely can't put myself in the position of someone who has that kind of money to throw at a toy!

[cookie1600]

'The engine will appear first in the new Esprit and will be running in anger in test mules towards the end of this year, we're told, so keep your eyes peeled'

[zebedee]

I meant mass market as in Golf/Mondeo etc. Yes they will need to sell more cars than they currently do but as posted below, with the investment, expansion of premises, expansion of model lines etc, surely that is what they are on with, so let them get on with it! And interesting to see the figures on the Elise sales below, clearly not disappointing. So why does everyone think Lotus struggles to sell cars, is this purely based on Europa and Evora? No-one says Renault struggle to sell cars because of the Vel Satis. Hopefully Evora sales will pick up now the IPS cars can start to sell in the US and eastern areas anyway. Go Lotus!

[Fire99]

Hedgerley said:

Stuff

Oh calm down, you'll give yourself a nosebleed.

Look, the Elise was an amazing success story but pre-dates Bahar by just about it's entire life cycle. In fact I doubt there would be a 'Lotus Cars' without it.

OK, we can't make a direct 1 to 1 comparison between a certain Russian and Bahar but the similarities are of over ambitious plans where actually generating some cash-flow into the company hasn't been proven yet and far more informed people than me have hinted that this may geared to making the company saleable at a premium price-tag.

Of course this is just my 50p

[zebedee]

Fire99 said:

Oh calm down, you'll give yourself a nosebleed.

Look, the Elise was an amazing success story but pre-dates Bahar by just about it's entire life cycle. In fact I doubt there would be a 'Lotus Cars' without it.

OK, we can't make a direct 1 to 1 comparison between a certain Russian and Bahar but the similarities are of over ambitious plans where actually generating some cash-flow into the company hasn't been proven yet and far more informed people than me have hinted that this may geared to making the company saleable at a premium price-tag.

Of course this is just my 50p

Surely proof of generating cashflow will only follow the models being developed, released and sold - give them a chance! And if it is to be sold at a premium price tag, the people carried out must be convinced through their due diligence that the cashflow must be a long way towards proven, otherwise why would they invest?

Can we not just go back to looking forward to the new Esprit which IS being developed and WILL have a LOTUS engine, rather than talking a load of nonsense that no-one (me included) knows anything about. They are a car company bringing a new car out and want to tell people about it, that is the start and end of it.

[Fire99]

zebedee said:

Can we not just go back to looking forward to the new Esprit which IS being developed and WILL have a LOTUS engine, rather than talking a load of nonsense that no-one (me included) knows anything about. They are a car company bringing a new car out and want to tell people about it, that is the start and end of it.

Well I wouldn't call it nonsense, but you have a point about the Esprit. I've been waiting for a new Esprit since the last one got its silly rear lights at the end of its cycle.

Lotus always were one of my favourite manufacturers, (though Bahar is the wrong man for the job.. sorry couldn't help that one. )

[Lefty]

It looks fantastic and the specs are impressive. I really hope it succeeds.

I don't see too many Evoras around in Aberdeen (where Caymans, 911's, M3's etc are ten a penny), do customers still view lotus as a bit of a risk?

[Fire99]

Lefty said:

It looks fantastic and the specs are impressive. I really hope it succeeds.

I don't see too many Evoras around in Aberdeen (where Caymans, 911's, M3's etc are ten a penny), do customers still view lotus as a bit of a risk?

In a nutshell, i'd say it just isn't good enough. (at least on paper) In today's HP hungry world, it's relatively down on power, looks a bit like a stretched Elise and doesn't have the brand Kudos of the likes of Porsche.

To me, the Elise was such a huge success but the company became a bit of a one-trick-pony and their modern-day reputation is not in the premium league.