RE: Lotus Poised To 'Twist Key' On Esprit's New V8

[Guvernator]

peter450 said:

otolith said:

Objectively, 49-59k doesn't seem unreasonable for the Evora, given that the 911 and GTR start at about 70k and the Exige is in the 35-46k range.

So the engine is based on one which appears in some lesser Toyota cars - more of an Evora is bespoke than an M3 saloon, yet an M3 which is mostly derived from a 23k repmobile is worth 57k while an Evora isn't?

Makes no sense to me, and it's not just the Evora, it's the whole Lotus range. I can't square how much people think a low volume sports car from Lotus should cost with how much people are willing to pay for - for example - a souped up Golf with an Audi badge on the nose.

I really like the Evora, and yeah i agree it's way more bespoke than a M3, which just goes to show how important the engine package is in such a car

Exactly, the M3 has two major things going for it which the Evora doesn't.

1) A massive brand following. Justfiably or not, the M3 has been THE performance saloon\coupe benchmark for at least the last 3 decades. That is a huge image advantage as the car almost sells itself due to worldwide recognition. The Evora doesn't

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car. The Evora doesn't. An engine is the heart of any car, especially a sports car. Get this wrong and you might as well not bother. Lotus got this wrong with the Evora, plain and simple.

[Tuna]

Guvernator said:

Exactly, the M3 has two major things going for it which the Evora doesn't.

1) A massive brand following. Justfiably or not, the M3 has been THE performance saloon\coupe benchmark for at least the last 3 decades. That is a huge image advantage as the car almost sells itself due to worldwide recognition. The Evora doesn't

• cough* Lotus Carlton.

I really, really don't believe that you could find someone who would buy a BMW because of the brand and get them to even glance at a Lotus. Entirely different proposition. Though it would be lovely if they sold fifty thousand Evoras a year, their sales targets were always a tiny, tiny fraction of BMW's, and the product is aimed at the person who appreciates the difference. In years to come, Lotus might produce a car with the ubiquity of a BMW, but they absolutely could not in any way even begin to address that kind of market right now. In their niche, they have plenty of brand recognition and quite a few loyal customers - but they don't have the range of cars to leverage that recognition. (Ugh, just used the word leverage). If Lotus are to transform, it'll be by producing the cars and support infrastructure first, not by playing brand games.

Guvernator said:

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car. The Evora doesn't. An engine is the heart of any car, especially a sports car. Get this wrong and you might as well not bother. Lotus got this wrong with the Evora, plain and simple.

You've driven one then? People seem to particularly like the S.

Frankly Lotus can't win this one. Choose a Totota engine and do the sort of tuning job that Lotus built a huge reputation on, and you get complaints of 'not bespoke'. Build their own and you get complaints of 'not reliable'.

[otolith]

Guvernator said:

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car. The Evora doesn't. An engine is the heart of any car, especially a sports car. Get this wrong and you might as well not bother. Lotus got this wrong with the Evora, plain and simple.

So the M3 is a bespoke engine in a tuned repmobile and the Evora is a tuned engine in a bespoke car - I just don't see the value argument.

[zebedee]

GKP said:

Hence the rejuvenated participation in many forms of motorsport.

And the big announcements about the rejuvenated brand and all the new models, that everyone seems to be complaining about!

On the one hand people are moaning about Lotus saying they are bored of all the talk, let's have action, on the other hand they are saying there won't be any action because they won't do anything about it! Just leave them to it and let's see what is delivered. I for one believe in them and wish them well. You only have to look at the work that has gone into the Evora GTE car by the motorsports department to see that they are taking things very seriously indeed.

[zebedee]

Guvernator said:

An engine is the heart of any car, especially a sports car. Get this wrong and you might as well not bother. Lotus got this wrong with the Evora, plain and simple.

You should drive an Evora, you may be right about the engine being the heart, but the handling and ride is the soul of the sports car in that case, in which case the Evora has got a hell of a lot of soul. And, when you push the engine, it sounds really rather lovely, an M3 apparently sounds nice inside, but having been passed by many at speed on my bike (and 'chasing' one in my Elise recently) they sound like a bag of nails being poured through a very powerful blender outside (though with an aftermarket system I have seen examples of, they can sound pretty superb).

What if Lotus could give us a version of the 4litre Cosworth-worked on unit from the GTE car, that would give it some pedigree would it not?

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

Guvernator said:

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car. The Evora doesn't. An engine is the heart of any car, especially a sports car. Get this wrong and you might as well not bother. Lotus got this wrong with the Evora, plain and simple.

So the M3 is a bespoke engine in a tuned repmobile and the Evora is a tuned engine in a bespoke car - I just don't see the value argument.

It's easy, Unfortunately 95% of people are more interested in the cars engine then a special chassis which allows the car to handle and go 15mph faster in a corner. Sad but true. As stated before, the engine makes the car and yes I have driven both. The M3's handling was good, obviously not in the same league as the Evora but not rubbish either. The engine in the M3 on the other hand is spectacular and it's this aspect of the car that makes it feel special and raises it above just being a tuned repmobile. The Evora while handling brilliantly had an engine that left me underwhelmed, both in it's feel and it's aural sensations. For a car which looks and handles like the Evora, it's not good enough. It also isn't as well screwed together as the M3.

They can get away with ok'ish engines and questionble build quality in a £30k Elise, they can't get away with it in a £50k car. The fact they aren't selling proves this.

[otolith]

Just seems a bizarre judgement of value for money to me. The margin on an M3 must be absolutely massive.

[Guvernator]

otolith said:

Just seems a bizarre judgement of value for money to me. The margin on an M3 must be absolutely massive.

I'm sure it is but then BMW make 1000's of cars a year and can spread R&D costs over a whoel range of cars. Obviously Lotus can't do that, I expect the margins on an Evora are a lot smaller. I'm not saying they should have designed a completely new engine for the £50k Evora as it probably wouldn't have been cost effect but they could I think have picked a better starting block then a Toyota Camry engine. Either that or they should have done a hell of a lot more tuning to that engine to help disguise it's very mundane origins.

[zebedee]

otolith said:

Just seems a bizarre judgement of value for money to me. The margin on an M3 must be absolutely massive.

it probably is, and that is why they make so much money. The marketplace is far harder for people like Lotus, whose product has to be standalone, and why the enthusiasts of the marque (and many enthusiastic drivers) love them and wish them well.

So how would people feel about a 4 litre re-worked Toyota lump, badged as a Cosworth and based on the race unit? Would that fill in the shortfall somewhat?

[Tuna]

zebedee said:

it probably is, and that is why they make so much money. The marketplace is far harder for people like Lotus, whose product has to be standalone, and why the enthusiasts of the marque (and many enthusiastic drivers) love them and wish them well.

So how would people feel about a 4 litre re-worked Toyota lump, badged as a Cosworth and based on the race unit? Would that fill in the shortfall somewhat?

No, they'd complain it was too expensive.

The thing is we've gone past the "why aren't you buying a Lotus?" questions - the people on this forum have already made their decisions, whether it's a BMW, Porsche or knackered old TVR. The conversation we're having now is about people justifying their decision after the fact and often without having even driven the cars they're discussing. The Governator here wouldn't buy a Lotus - he wants a saloon that's got a bit more Kudos than a fast Ford. Then there's the guys who want Lotus to produce a 1983 Esprit again (ideally at 1983 prices) and cannot comprehend that the industry cannot do a car like that any more. And so on and so forth.

More than anything, Lotus need people to want to make the effort to go into their local dealer and ask for a test drive. The Elise did that for me, and the attitude of the dealer, the pleasure of the car and the fantastic reviews combined to make me see the whole company in a fresh light. In the current market they can't quite get by on enthusiasm though - they've got to deliver the whole package. In that light, Bahar's plans make (some) sense and the speed of change is never going to be quick. So long as they respond to the feedback they're getting (not a particular strong point of the company) and fine tune their initial plans accordingly, I can't see how they can do much better to change public perceptions.

[otolith]

Criticism of the character of the engine, having driven the car, is fair enough - I'm not a huge fan of the one in my Lotus - but I would never have been put off buying it by the origins of the engine. I suspect the provenance, rather than the characteristics of the engine, is what many of those surveyed objected to, and if they are such brand wes that a Toyota sourced engine is a deal breaker, I wonder if they would actually buy a Lotus in the first place?

[braddo]

Guvernator said:

It's easy, Unfortunately 95% of people are more interested in the cars engine then a special chassis which allows the car to handle and go 15mph faster in a corner.

That's absolute rubbish.

People have lots of reasons for buying a car. Some might include 'sporty' looks or a 'sporty' (i.e. not a saloon) feel inside, i.e. diesel Audi TTs...

I currently have a car that's almost all about the engine (C43) but a mid-engined sports car is a far, far more interesting thing to look at and out of and even to drive to the shops. I dare say more than 5% of car buyers in the £50k market are interested in that experience as much as who made the engine.

[Guvernator]

Tuna said:

The Governator here wouldn't buy a Lotus - he wants a saloon that's got a bit more Kudos than a fast Ford.

Never said I wouldn't buy a Lotus. In fact I would be in an Exige right now if it had a better engine it in and when I say better I am not talking about the badge on the engine either. I have no problem with a Toyoto engine, they made the V8 in the IS-F and the V10 in the LFA so they can definately make good'uns, I just don't think a 1.8 4 pot was an appropriate choice for the Exige and I don't think the Camry's engine was the appropriate choice for the Evora. This is just my opinion so sorry if this upsets all the Lotus fans.

[carl0s]

I think it's a shame they're not using Toyota engines. Reliability and strength of engineering is a huge factor for me in choosing and liking a car/machine, and I think I would always feel content with Toyota, Denso & Aisin inside.

[carl0s]

Guvernator said:

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car.

I thought I'd heard that most owners were frustrated by a severe lack of low/mid torque from that under-sized V8 ?
I haven't driven one, so perhaps my opinion is worthless, but from what I've read it sounds a bit like the "S2000 VTEC" of the V8 world (i.e. rev the bks off it or you're going nowhere fast).
It is a handsome car though, and has back seats..

[Guvernator]

carl0s said:

Guvernator said:

2) The M3 has a bespoke screaming V8 which revs past 8000rpm. It's the best thing about the car and defines the driving experience of the whole car.

I thought I'd heard that most owners were frustrated by a severe lack of low/mid torque from that under-sized V8 ?
I haven't driven one, so perhaps my opinion is worthless, but from what I've read it sounds a bit like the "S2000 VTEC" of the V8 world (i.e. rev the bks off it or you're going nowhere fast).
It is a handsome car though, and has back seats..

This might sound contraversial and I am ready for any flaming but I would say anyone who drives a V8 M3 and thinks it is lacking in low end torque has seriously misunderstood that car totally and would have been better off purchasing a 335D auto. The car has a huge table of torque available from very low revs and yet still revs to 8000rpm, ok maybe it isn't as torquey as a modern turbo diesel but that isn't the point of an M3.

The fact that it is wrapped in a relatively practical coupe\saloon bodyshell makes people think it should be as effortless to drive as a 335d but I disagree, it's an M car and as such it should be designed to reward the people who enjoy driving and want to be part of the experience. Lazy drivers have plenty of other options in the BMW range so I am annoyed when people complain about that fantastic engine as it will just lead to dumbing down of the M ethos as is happening already. Too many people now buy the M3 because of the badge and because it's the "top spec one" and then complain that it can't overtake in 5th gear like a Golf turbo diesel.

I'd dare say if the Evora had been launched with an engine in it anywhere near as exciting as the one which is in the M3,it would have done a lot better.

Edited by Guvernator on Monday 27th June 15:20

[carl0s]

Guvernator said:

This might sound contraversial and I am ready for any flaming but I would say anyone who drives a V8 M3 and thinks it is lacking in low end torque has seriously misunderstood that car totally and would have been better off purchasing a 335D auto. The car has a huge table of torque available from very low revs and yet still revs to 8000rpm, ok maybe it isn't as torquey as a modern turbo diesel but that isn't the point of an M3.

The fact that it is wrapped in a relatively practical coupe\saloon bodyshell makes people think it should be as effortless to drive as a 335d but I disagree, it's an M car and as such it should be designed to reward the people who enjoy driving and want to be part of the experience. Lazy drivers have plenty of other options in the BMW range so I am annoyed when people complain about that fantastic engine as it will just lead to dumbing down of the M ethos as is happening already. Too many people now buy the M3 because of the badge and because it's the "top spec one" and then complain that it can't overtake in 5th gear like a Golf turbo diesel.

I'd dare say if the Evora had been launched with an engine in it anywhere near as exciting as the one which is in the M3,it would have done a lot better.

Edited by Guvernator on Monday 27th June 15:20

Fair enough. I haven't driven one, although it's a half-tempting proposition for a more modern, semi-practical replacement for the existing fun car, if I ever totally give up trying to stop all the creaks and rattles. The people I'd heard complaining were those who had driven the 335i petrol straight-six turbo.

p.s. lazy is lovely

Edited by carl0s on Tuesday 28th June 00:17

[otolith]

High revving engines are a matter of taste. Some love them, some don't.

[aventino68]

LewisR said:

thinfourth2 said:

What happened to the old Lotus V8?

It got quietly dropped. I don't think that the reliability was as good as it could have been.

Thats being nice, the EVO and Autocar used car buyers guides said run far away from the V8, they always blow up due crap design and engineering "not if but when" and rebuild costs are staggering.

[anonymous-user]

As I keep saying on this subject you need to understand Malysian politics and thinking, this will all fizle out following the next election in Malyasia, and the stop on investment, the multi cat policy at Lotus is simply ann extension of the way Protopn operate in their home market, it can not work without the market protection proton enjoy,