RE: The Lotus Five Year Plan - One Year In
Discussion
Scuffers said:
only cause the money they got for the Elise has been pissed up the wall doing stupid s
t.
t.
I think the Elise was quite profitable. Unfortunately they spent all the money they made on things like the M250, which never made it to market. The direction Lotus Cars are taking now, I think they will either succeed in becoming a genuine Porsche competitor or will cease to exist in the next ten years. Unfortunately in such a brand/badge obsessed market, I suspect the latter is rather more likely than the former, however good the cars are.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 28th June 14:19
P9UNK said:
...if the 12c can put a league between it and the Ferrari I think Lotus can supercede the legendary Elise...
Unfortunate comparison as most reviews put the 458 ahead of the MP4-12C.Lotus certainly can supercede the Elise but I think they need to be very wary of the "TVR-trap" - lose your core customers through price and fail to find enough new customers with the new cars.
Hopefully they'll succeed though
ewenm said:
I think they need to be very wary of the "TVR-trap" - lose your core customers through price and fail to find enough new customers with the new cars.
^^^^^ ThisMy bet is they'll have to restyle the Evora externally and re-launch it as an Elan. Price and performance will need to be sensible though. As TG said, who wants to buy a £60k sportscar and be blown into the weeds by a £40k BMW saloon?
otolith said:
5 USA said:
As TG said, who wants to buy a £60k sportscar and be blown into the weeds by a £40k BMW saloon?
Who wants to buy a 40k BMW saloon and be blown into the weeds by a 30k Caterham?Who wants to buy a 30k Caterham and be blown into the weeds by a 10k motorcycle?
Sport Auto, one of the top car magazine in Germany, just testet the new BMW 1M, with sport suspenion and performance tyres. As a reference, they always use the Hockenheim Track:
lap times
BMW 1M: 1.14,1
Porsche 911 speedster (408bhp) 1.13,4
Porsche 911 black edition (385bhp) 1.13,8
BMW: M3 (V8): 1.14,3
Lotus Evora S (345bhp): 1.13,2
Lotus Evora (276bhp): 1.14,2
So, the Evora S is much faster than the 1M, faster than the 911 (except GT2/3 and Turbo)and also faster than the Audi TT RS and the cayman S, which has laped with 1.14,2
Around the track, even the Evora with 276bhp is faster than the 420bhp M3 with a V8.
Price tags of these cars are all at least in the Evora range, most of them are higher. The tested 1M was 60K Euro, same at the Evora S!
lap times
BMW 1M: 1.14,1
Porsche 911 speedster (408bhp) 1.13,4
Porsche 911 black edition (385bhp) 1.13,8
BMW: M3 (V8): 1.14,3
Lotus Evora S (345bhp): 1.13,2
Lotus Evora (276bhp): 1.14,2
So, the Evora S is much faster than the 1M, faster than the 911 (except GT2/3 and Turbo)and also faster than the Audi TT RS and the cayman S, which has laped with 1.14,2
Around the track, even the Evora with 276bhp is faster than the 420bhp M3 with a V8.
Price tags of these cars are all at least in the Evora range, most of them are higher. The tested 1M was 60K Euro, same at the Evora S!
There are some very good points made here (and some bolloks as always!).
The thing is, for me, if it comes in at £120k-ish were a 458 is £200k and comes close on performance I think there IS a market.
This pic is my current desktop, and also the only reason I'm buying lottery tickets at the moment:
The thing is, for me, if it comes in at £120k-ish were a 458 is £200k and comes close on performance I think there IS a market.
This pic is my current desktop, and also the only reason I'm buying lottery tickets at the moment:
This weeks Auto Express[yes I know]says the Esprit will be built in Britain,the Ethos in Malaysia with finishing by Lotus and the Elite Eterne and Elise somewhere abroad.Presumably they did not get the HMG financial backing they were after and are making good on the threat to manufacture abroad.As this company is owned by Malaysians,managed by Europeans and intend to manufacture abroad how can it call its products British?
rob.e said:
There are some very good points made here (and some bolloks as always!).
The thing is, for me, if it comes in at £120k-ish were a 458 is £200k and comes close on performance I think there IS a market.
This pic is my current desktop, and also the only reason I'm buying lottery tickets at the moment:
Sadly it won't. The latest from Bahar is that the Esprit will be nearer £170k.The thing is, for me, if it comes in at £120k-ish were a 458 is £200k and comes close on performance I think there IS a market.
This pic is my current desktop, and also the only reason I'm buying lottery tickets at the moment:
Which makes no sense to me at all and a large part of my current despair with the new management.
No doubt the price has been revised upwards since deciding to make their own engines along with the corresponding view that having its own engine makes it more upmarket. All this thanks to a bunch of nutters who responded to an internet survey saying that they wouldn't pay big money for a toyota engined car.
I remember when everyone said they'd buy an Esprit if it had a V8. The four cylinder was what was stopping them taking it seriously. Lotus made their own V8, very light, very compact (not that anyone cared about such things back then) very powerful. And everyone just carried on buying 911s as usual.
@the Pits:
Get the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!
Get the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!
The Pits said:
I remember when everyone said they'd buy an Esprit if it had a V8. The four cylinder was what was stopping them taking it seriously. Lotus made their own V8, very light, very compact (not that anyone cared about such things back then) very powerful. And everyone just carried on buying 911s as usual.
well, never quite happened like that though did it?the last V8 was a disaster of an engine, that was then hamstrung with a joke of a gearbox.
Lord_Colin said:
@the Pits:
Get the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!
Dear Mr BaharGet the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!
The one thing that's for certain is that we don't have are any FACTS.
Plenty of plans and lots of hype, not one single FACT. It is both naiive and ludicrous for you to suggest otherwise. We are still a long way from launch and the plans have already changed several times in a year. I suppose 'less than 458 and it will be much better perform' is another fact?
You need to get that straight if you don't want to come across as being seriously out of touch with reality.
Leithen said:
It appears that those in the employ of Lotus are working their backsides off right now.
Except for those who are being made redundant.http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jun/02/lot...
http://uk.autoblog.com/2011/06/03/lotus-warns-of-j...
http://www.expressandstar.com/business/city-news/2...
http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=12...
@ the Pits
Well my friend, when you start something new, like Lotus does, than this is how its starts. You cant start with facts, and you have to be smart enough to make chanches in a dynamic process.
The problem is not, that there are no facts in so far, you just have to see them.
Lotus finished 3rd with the Evora at Le Mans (24hrs) in Class, with a car, that has almost no testing seen before. Several Ferrari and Porsche have not seen the finish line!!
Lotus finished 5th, 4th and second in the last few Indycar races.
Lotus sold 60% of all availabe Lotus Ethos 125 (each over 600k gbp).
Lotus has allready sold more Evora race cars, the last 8 moth, then the total of all race cars sold the last 3 years!
Lotus sold 120 cars to China, within 2 weeks!
Lotus went from a Toyota engine, to a in house built engine, because this was the feedback of potential customers! When that happend the last time, that Lotus was listening to customers?
Look, how Bahar hired!!!! These are the absolut best of the industry and it shows you a lot about the integrity of the project!
Also, look at all the new Lotus representatives, like Jean Alesi, Nigel Mansell, Bruno Senna and more.
These are all facts, that Lotus has chanched dramatically!!
If you cant see them all, well, then I'm sorry, because, then I missed my point!
Please do not call me Mr. Bahar. This is not fair towards Dany Bahar. You can take a look at my profile.
Well my friend, when you start something new, like Lotus does, than this is how its starts. You cant start with facts, and you have to be smart enough to make chanches in a dynamic process.
The problem is not, that there are no facts in so far, you just have to see them.
Lotus finished 3rd with the Evora at Le Mans (24hrs) in Class, with a car, that has almost no testing seen before. Several Ferrari and Porsche have not seen the finish line!!
Lotus finished 5th, 4th and second in the last few Indycar races.
Lotus sold 60% of all availabe Lotus Ethos 125 (each over 600k gbp).
Lotus has allready sold more Evora race cars, the last 8 moth, then the total of all race cars sold the last 3 years!
Lotus sold 120 cars to China, within 2 weeks!
Lotus went from a Toyota engine, to a in house built engine, because this was the feedback of potential customers! When that happend the last time, that Lotus was listening to customers?
Look, how Bahar hired!!!! These are the absolut best of the industry and it shows you a lot about the integrity of the project!
Also, look at all the new Lotus representatives, like Jean Alesi, Nigel Mansell, Bruno Senna and more.
These are all facts, that Lotus has chanched dramatically!!
If you cant see them all, well, then I'm sorry, because, then I missed my point!
Please do not call me Mr. Bahar. This is not fair towards Dany Bahar. You can take a look at my profile.
Lord_Colin said:
The problem is not, that there are no facts in so far, you just have to see them.
No, the problem is you have to believe 
There a zero facts about what is happening at GL. Take for example their budget - at first it was meant to be a $Billion (A fraction of what Mclaren have spent getting the mp4-12c on the road), now Bahar is talking about 400 million quid, whereas the reports from Malaysia where the loans are being guaranteed say GL has just 250 million pounds of which they have burnt through a large chunk already.
Lord_Colin said:
Lotus finished 3rd with the Evora at Le Mans (24hrs) in Class, with a car, that has almost no testing seen before. Several Ferrari and Porsche have not seen the finish line!!
Yep, a great showing by a great car.Lord_Colin said:
Lotus finished 5th, 4th and second in the last few Indycar races.
It is best to keep quiet about the Indycar adventure or someone will post a URL to the video of last season set to the Benny Hill music. But lets face it, if you claim 'Lotus' came 2nd in Indycar, well then Caterham won the GP2 race in MonacoLord_Colin said:
Lotus sold 60% of all availabe Lotus Ethos 125 (each over 600k gbp).
Really? Again, a complete lack of facts, the last news about the 125 was it was delayed indefinitely. For them to be able to do that surely none have been 'sold', GL maybe took a few deposits and (hopefully) has returned them.Lord_Colin said:
Lotus has allready sold more Evora race cars, the last 8 moth, then the total of all race cars sold the last 3 years!
Statistics, damned statistics. How many race cars did they sell over the last 3 years?Back in the real world, Proton's accounts from last year are online, and you can have a look at just how much money GL lost...
Smoke and mirrors, while they are getting newspaper column inches with launching a new multi million pound test track, staff are being laid off.
Lord_Colin said:
@ the Pits
Lotus sold 120 cars to China, within 2 weeks!
So they say, but with all the other BS floating around...Lotus sold 120 cars to China, within 2 weeks!
Lord_Colin said:
Lotus went from a Toyota engine, to a in house built engine, because this was the feedback of potential customers!
Which they needed to do to compete with the like of Porsche, but doing that has pushed the price up to 170k which means they are competing against Ferrari... None of this looks good.And none of it makes sense. But, there is a growing feeling that the reason none of this makes any sense is that this grand plan has nothing to do with releasing new cars, and all to do with inflating the value of GL before it being sold by Proton.
@ mechadaniel
you can look at the world from different perspectives.
you are 100% right in one point, at the end, you have to belive!
but if we only had people like you, look at the world from the worst angle, beeing pessimistic about everything, it would be really a sad place.
...and I also do not understand, what really the problem is. As you mentioned, Lotus was going down for years know and the end would have been near anyway, so why the hell you cant give the Lotus Management Team at least a chanche?
All I hear from the great Kingdom is pessimistic and criticism!!!!!!!!
At the end, my post are only saying, give the gus a chanche, to bring one of the most legendary Name in good old England back to life.
And since they are doing all they can, support them ......and if you do not support them, at least, show some respect to what they do .....
you can look at the world from different perspectives.
you are 100% right in one point, at the end, you have to belive!
but if we only had people like you, look at the world from the worst angle, beeing pessimistic about everything, it would be really a sad place.
...and I also do not understand, what really the problem is. As you mentioned, Lotus was going down for years know and the end would have been near anyway, so why the hell you cant give the Lotus Management Team at least a chanche?
All I hear from the great Kingdom is pessimistic and criticism!!!!!!!!
At the end, my post are only saying, give the gus a chanche, to bring one of the most legendary Name in good old England back to life.
And since they are doing all they can, support them ......and if you do not support them, at least, show some respect to what they do .....
Not disputing what has been done to date.
But the 'facts' you wanted me to get straight were these:
"Get the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!"
These are not facts at all.
I admire your optimism. I was also very vocal in support of lotus when they announced the plans and I'd be willing to bet that I am an even bigger fan of Lotus than you, having owned 4 cars, 2 Esprits and a Lotus Carlton (all bought new) and currently own and adore an Elise. I would absolutely love an Exos or to compete in an Evora GT4 but for the time and money.
But the whole aspirational lifestyle model for Lotus makes my skin crawl. I'm a complete sucker for a Lotus Sport fleece and the like but €150 for Bermuda shorts, noncey €450 cardigans and €1000 humidors are all a shameful waste of company resources - especially when the thing the company urgently needs above all else are some decent engines to replace the toyota ZZGE fell foul of euro 5 legislation - something known about for a very long time.
7 months later and only mere rumour (nothing from the factory whatsoever) of something at Frankfurt (September). That, along with the shooting themselves in the foot over the Evora episode leaves the Lotus dealers with precious little to work with for a very long time. If your head of design slags off the current car's styling and your MD talks about all the quality improvements and styling changes in the pipeline, guess what? you might just hold off on your Evora purchase for a while at a time when the dealers have to survive on that and a 1.6 Elise. So far the only thing Bahar's dream team has produced is evidence of gross incompetence.
Naomi cambell ker-ching! Mickey Rourke - kerching! F1 sponsorship - DOUBLEKERCHING!!!
Loads of marketing but nothing for those impressed by it to buy. All sizzle, no sausage = bugger all use to anyone. That's a fundamental error and inspires no confidence in me whatsoever.
Lotus used to be about cars first and foremost. And what worries me most is that EVERY single great Lotus, was a shining example of performance through lightweight. (I had a Lotus carlton and it was great for different reasons a blue collar hero, a vauxhall that could duff up a testarossa, a super cosworth, a great practical, very fast car, amazing in its day but not a great example of the Lotus ethos) As I've stated already that's the perfect sports car mantra for 2011 and beyond and a path ironically that Ferrari and Lamborghini are being forced to pursue to ensure their survival. For Bahar not to embrace that and choose to follow the ferrari route of prestige and lifestyle (but without the ferrari heritage to back it up) shows he fundamentally doesn't get the opportunity and makes him at least 10 years out of date.
Every new Lotus should be the lightest in it's class by a mile. Let the brand be built on that. Let every new car demonstrate why this is a good thing if you like driving. Let Lotus pioneer more lightweight technology, let them follow where everyone else is having to go. Toyota did it with hybrid way before anyone else, they are now 10 years ahead of the germans. Now watch them reap the benefits, with every out of date german hybrid in the next few years only proving that toyota and lexus were right all along. Let every new sports car from Ferrari and the rest prove that Lotus were right all along.
The world just doesn't want or need anymore of the same supercars. It's a brutally competitive world out there and if you're not playing to your strengths you're dead in the water. Ferrari play on emotion but have added advanced tech into the mix, leveraging their F1 schumacher dominance very well. Playing to their strengths. Porsche's strength was always durability and build. Even when they weren't fashionable they just stuck to that and have won the trust of the masses. So if you're not sure what to buy and you want a sportscar, buy a porsche. The default sportscar. If you earn that postion you don't throw it away, don't take any risks with the car, evolve it, nothing radical. It works as you can see.
Lamborghini own 'outrageousness'. They were never going to beat ferrari on heritage and pedigree so they wisely went another way. All they were missing was some reassurance that the outrageousness doesn't come at the expense of mechanical issues. Not even Lambo owners want to get noticed on the hard shoulder. Add german ownership and bingo,10,000 Gallardos and counting.
Lotus need to play to their strengths. Let Bahar apply his marketing ability selling proper Lotuses. Modern? yes, radical? yes please, well built? absolutely crucial to get right, shoddy build just doesn't cut it anymore and a good reputation will take time to earn, so needs to be prioritised. But good build easier to do when your car is simple and simplicity is a key Lotus tool in the quest for lightness.
It all goes back to that for me I'm afraid. 'Lifestyle' has nothing to do with it.
But the 'facts' you wanted me to get straight were these:
"Get the facts first, before you talk BS.
The esprit with 570bhp will still be around 125k
the R with 620bhp will be more and the top of the line, the R Superlegera will cost around 168K. this is still less than 458 and it will be much better perform. in fact, the 570bhp will match the 458 performance easy!"
These are not facts at all.
I admire your optimism. I was also very vocal in support of lotus when they announced the plans and I'd be willing to bet that I am an even bigger fan of Lotus than you, having owned 4 cars, 2 Esprits and a Lotus Carlton (all bought new) and currently own and adore an Elise. I would absolutely love an Exos or to compete in an Evora GT4 but for the time and money.
But the whole aspirational lifestyle model for Lotus makes my skin crawl. I'm a complete sucker for a Lotus Sport fleece and the like but €150 for Bermuda shorts, noncey €450 cardigans and €1000 humidors are all a shameful waste of company resources - especially when the thing the company urgently needs above all else are some decent engines to replace the toyota ZZGE fell foul of euro 5 legislation - something known about for a very long time.
7 months later and only mere rumour (nothing from the factory whatsoever) of something at Frankfurt (September). That, along with the shooting themselves in the foot over the Evora episode leaves the Lotus dealers with precious little to work with for a very long time. If your head of design slags off the current car's styling and your MD talks about all the quality improvements and styling changes in the pipeline, guess what? you might just hold off on your Evora purchase for a while at a time when the dealers have to survive on that and a 1.6 Elise. So far the only thing Bahar's dream team has produced is evidence of gross incompetence.
Naomi cambell ker-ching! Mickey Rourke - kerching! F1 sponsorship - DOUBLEKERCHING!!!
Loads of marketing but nothing for those impressed by it to buy. All sizzle, no sausage = bugger all use to anyone. That's a fundamental error and inspires no confidence in me whatsoever.
Lotus used to be about cars first and foremost. And what worries me most is that EVERY single great Lotus, was a shining example of performance through lightweight. (I had a Lotus carlton and it was great for different reasons a blue collar hero, a vauxhall that could duff up a testarossa, a super cosworth, a great practical, very fast car, amazing in its day but not a great example of the Lotus ethos) As I've stated already that's the perfect sports car mantra for 2011 and beyond and a path ironically that Ferrari and Lamborghini are being forced to pursue to ensure their survival. For Bahar not to embrace that and choose to follow the ferrari route of prestige and lifestyle (but without the ferrari heritage to back it up) shows he fundamentally doesn't get the opportunity and makes him at least 10 years out of date.
Every new Lotus should be the lightest in it's class by a mile. Let the brand be built on that. Let every new car demonstrate why this is a good thing if you like driving. Let Lotus pioneer more lightweight technology, let them follow where everyone else is having to go. Toyota did it with hybrid way before anyone else, they are now 10 years ahead of the germans. Now watch them reap the benefits, with every out of date german hybrid in the next few years only proving that toyota and lexus were right all along. Let every new sports car from Ferrari and the rest prove that Lotus were right all along.
The world just doesn't want or need anymore of the same supercars. It's a brutally competitive world out there and if you're not playing to your strengths you're dead in the water. Ferrari play on emotion but have added advanced tech into the mix, leveraging their F1 schumacher dominance very well. Playing to their strengths. Porsche's strength was always durability and build. Even when they weren't fashionable they just stuck to that and have won the trust of the masses. So if you're not sure what to buy and you want a sportscar, buy a porsche. The default sportscar. If you earn that postion you don't throw it away, don't take any risks with the car, evolve it, nothing radical. It works as you can see.
Lamborghini own 'outrageousness'. They were never going to beat ferrari on heritage and pedigree so they wisely went another way. All they were missing was some reassurance that the outrageousness doesn't come at the expense of mechanical issues. Not even Lambo owners want to get noticed on the hard shoulder. Add german ownership and bingo,10,000 Gallardos and counting.
Lotus need to play to their strengths. Let Bahar apply his marketing ability selling proper Lotuses. Modern? yes, radical? yes please, well built? absolutely crucial to get right, shoddy build just doesn't cut it anymore and a good reputation will take time to earn, so needs to be prioritised. But good build easier to do when your car is simple and simplicity is a key Lotus tool in the quest for lightness.
It all goes back to that for me I'm afraid. 'Lifestyle' has nothing to do with it.
Edited by The Pits on Friday 1st July 13:00
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