RE: The Lotus Five Year Plan - One Year In

[otolith]

GKP said:

ESOG said:

So wait, they canned the Elan?!?

No. No they haven't.

As I understand it, they have canned it in the originally specified form, but still intend to release a more modestly powered and priced version at some point.

[peter450]

BSC said:

The game Lotus is playing has one major risk: A competitor like Lamborghini or Audi could easily corrupt Esprit sales by dropping the price of their cars. VAG can compensate the loss, Lotus can't. That would destroy Lotus and give VAG and others the chance to take over for peanuts. TBH that would be my strategy.

Dropping your prices like that does not really work, because, then people expect your cars to cost that, and when they suddenly shoot up again a fw years later, people stop buying

Supercar prices have only ever gone one way, and thats up, at a rate far in excess of most normal cars, what has been Pagani's,Bugatti's, Astons responce, to each others super expensive cars?, to make an even more super expensive one

[chickensoup]

Dropping your prices would be a stupid thing to do. Sports cars are more likely to be a private rather than business purchase, and these big ticket ones are for those who can afford them (hell people even buy Maserati); however cost of ownership is more likely to be purchase - sale price taking into account cost of ownership. Maserti would cost more than Audi, even if the new purchase price is the same. Drop the price of a new car, and the resale value plummets, so your existing owners get burnt (that is existing owners at the price point you now operate in - not owners of £10K sheddy old Lotus)

Interesting to see Audi in this example - surely an example of how building a decent car and investing in motorsport gets you into credible upmarket niche (even if you have no history there (R8)

[iandews]

I had my eyes firmly focused on the Elan as a potential future car, now it seems a delay has once again put me off the Lotus brand; plus the whole mess around Lotus Group / Team Lotus isn't exactly helping for me!

I requested brochures from Lotus a few months ago soon on the current and future models and didn't receive anything; if Lotus expect to regain the success, they need to start considering their potential customers a little more.

[Lord_Colin]

There is so much BS talking here!
The current Lotus customers are Elise and Exige owners, since Lotus has not mad a car car for adults in years. Dont get me wrong, I love the Elise/Exiges, but Lotus is not aiming towards them for the new cars. The new cars will be sold mostly to new customers and also important to new markets. For that, you need a very good marketing, which Lotus is doing, for the first time in their life!
The Evora, also a great car, has nothing to do with the new management, they just got stuck with it know and have to make the best out of it.
Problem is, that most people here dont connect the dots. If you are asking for a Lexus engine that weighs 270kg in a Esprit, or Evora, then you really missed the point of performance true ligtweight, especially, if Lotus can make one with only 170Kg and with Wolf Zimmerman, belive me, they can!
I dont get this constant bhing on whatever Lotus, or shall we say Bahar is doing. Do you guys know, that Bahar bought 20% of the Lotus stocks, which means, he put his own money in to the deal! And why do you think, we have such a incredible management working at Lotus, with Donato Coco (Ferrari) Wolf Zimmermann (AMG) Claudio Berro (Porsche) and many many more. Do you really think, they all wrong and have no idea about what they do? Bahar hired 20 top shots from the industry, take your time and look at the track reports of them. And then take some time to think, because you perhaps discover, that something unique is going on here.
I admitt, Bahars plan with Lotus is ambitious, but he got the skills, the people and the money to do it. Just a shame, that he has no support from Lotus home country .... at least, he has the support from the rest of the world. But I know for a fact that the support from England would be very important to him.

and by the way, talking about sales figures: just wait untill the Esprit order list is open, and you will see .....

[anonymous-user]

Lord_Colin said:

If you are asking for a Lexus engine that weighs 270kg in a Esprit, or Evora, then you really missed the point of performance true ligtweight, especially, if Lotus can make one with only 170Kg and with Wolf Zimmerman, belive me, they can!

If they got some of the tonnage out of the cars they wouldn't have to embark on the expensive and high risk route of designing and building a new engine when there are proven units available off the shelf with a warranty.

When Lotus were last selling Esprits they were only building about one car a day. You can't survive on that without stratospheric pricing - which the market isn't going to accept from Lotus. Maybe Bahar will deliver on his promises of building huge sales; I hope he does. Personally I'd feel more comfortable if he was starting out with a business plan which was much less challenging.

[The Pits]

I'm all in favour of ambition for lotus. I've long believed they were capable of building better cars than Ferrari and Porsche who are stuck with an ancient design and conservative styling.

Of course I'm virtually alone in this belief. But what lotus achieve on bugets equivalent to what Porsche spends on a new wing mirror puts their rivals to shame.

The dream is what they could do with greater resources. But I want to see the money spent on the cars not a new clothing line.

Bahars ambition is in the wrong place. He's focused on prestige and aspirational lifestyle. This was a golden opportunity to lead the world in lightweight technology. If the target weight for the esprit was under 1100kg, they would then have a point of difference and opportunity for dynamic superiority.

Right now, in what way is the esprit going to be better than the 458? It's a bit cheaper, which won't help bahar's aspirational plans. Right now the plans are for a high revving v8 with similar power and weight to the 458. Unless you prefer the styling or dislike Ferrari I can't see a reason to buy the esprit.

I would be delighted to be proved wrong and would love lotus to succeed. I was also in support of the new plans when first announced. I'm just struggling to see how it's going to happen at the moment.

[Al 450]

Some good posts on this thread, well done PH for such well thought out comments.

Personally I think that Proton lack the will or the funds to see this all through and that it is a high stakes game of call my bluff where they are touting Lotus to various prospective buyers. The brave unveil of the five year plan is a good PR stunt designed to raise the profile of the company and the brand to try to find a buyer, this also explains the recent F1 involvement.

Telling us they will develop their own engine is a further PR game of showing the world that the company has the engineering expertise and resources that it will need to develop the product plan (which of course it hasn't on such an ambitious scale). This is also why the company has made a significant number of high profile management appointments which it seems to trumpet at every opportunity. I'd wager that the company doesn't actually have anywhere near the funding that it needs which is why it hasn't so far significantly invested in new production facilities or actual tooling and engineering.

I think one of two things will happen, 1) Lotus will soon find significant funding and / or a buyer with deep pockets, probably one inexperienced in the automotive world or 2) This doesn't happen and the projects will be quietly scaled back, delayed and dropped until it continues as current or becomes an even smaller concern.

Let's hope it gets the funding it needs as there are certainly some talented people at Hethel who deserve a crack at a realistic business plan.

[otolith]

Andbreathe.

[P9UNK]

Rawwr said:

The Pits said:

would I spend that sort of money on a Lotus? After having had 4 Lotus cars I consider myself a very loyal customer so if I'm having my doubts

I don't believe New Lotus will have any relation to Old Lotus apart from the badge. This is the necessary total breakaway from what they've done in the past.

Owned a Lotus in the past? Yes? That's super but they're going to be relics if the Bahar direction works.[/quote


I think you will be suprised, it is common knowledge that the dealer network didn't give the Elise much of a chance, "where are the carpets etc"...now imagine a few years time and there is a Lotus showroom with a lot of new sportscars with the iconic badge, I know I will want one and I have had 5 Elise Exiges and loved them all. The new cars will be impressive and the few people who don't like them are akin to those Russians who still buy the still made old style 60s Lada, they don"t want anything else. And talking of relics, yes the current Elise has to go, a leading company has to develop. The new cars will have the DNA, find a market and a bigger one but at what volume is the question. For some though they will always want the old days and I suppose for those of us who were there in the 90s and up to recently, it was almost like a special club which you didn"t have to be super rich to join...but that doesn't make a business. OK ready for my Lotus PR job...

[ESOG]

Why does the Elise "have to go?" Seriously why? it is a very successful car and is the embodiment of Lotus cars. So what if its been running around basically unchanged for a decade, so has many other iconic sports car, like the 911. BMW and Mini sell the same car basically. The Elise should stay in its current form. Of course making subtle changes here and there, but why does it have to go? what sense does that make? If something works, why can it or change it? it doesnt make sense.

[marshalla]

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?"

For the same reason that the 7 had to go. Brand image.

[ewenm]

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?" Seriously why? it is a very successful car and is the embodiment of Lotus cars. So what if its been running around basically unchanged for a decade, so has many other iconic sports car, like the 911. BMW and Mini sell the same car basically. The Elise should stay in its current form. Of course making subtle changes here and there, but why does it have to go? what sense does that make? If something works, why can it or change it? it doesnt make sense.

I think it's because it is losing them money. Lotus Cars haven't been profitable for 15 years or so according to the original reports on this cahnge of direction.

[otolith]

ewenm said:

I think it's because it is losing them money. Lotus Cars haven't been profitable for 15 years or so according to the original reports on this cahnge of direction.

There is a subtle difference between "The Elise is losing us money" and "We don't make enough money on Elises to pay the bills". I'm prepared to be corrected, but I don't think they lose more money on every unit sold, they just don't sell enough units to make the business profitable.

Looking at their projections for total production of the new models, I don't think they plan to sell MKIII Elises in higher volume than they did the earlier cars. I don't think it was deemed necessary to abandon the Elise market from that point of view, I think it was more about defining what kind of company they are and providing an entry level car to "introduce people to the brand". They seem to have been stung by the feedback from current owners who, it turns out, bought an Elise because they wanted that kind of car rather than because they wanted a Lotus badge and couldn't buy a more expensive one. Lotus management do seem to be reconsidering, judging by some of the more recent noises. We'll have to wait and see.

[P9UNK]

marshalla said:

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?"

For the same reason that the 7 had to go. Brand image.

I understand the "why does it have to go" but Lotus are not in the position of some of the other manufacturers, Porsche is different... The Elise needs a better platform and while it will be ok for a few more years eventually it will be too old and that is not want the company want, 96 was a long time ago in car terms. It is like arguing that the MGF in today"s form is as valid as the new MX5. Lotus don't want that levelled at them, they are right up there with the best so they need to keep up and will impress by doing so. Many buyers of new Elises and Exiges were actually old customers too and this gain is not a business model that would satisfy a parent company. With the F1 stuff going on I can imagine a lot of new customers being interested in going to Lotus for the first time, and this is the answer to sustained growth. It is a gamble and I hope it works, for me I guess the entry level Elise is possible and I can't wait the rest of the experience wont include me though!

[Al 450]

P9UNK said:

marshalla said:

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?"

For the same reason that the 7 had to go. Brand image.

I understand the "why does it have to go" but Lotus are not in the position of some of the other manufacturers, Porsche is different... The Elise needs a better platform and while it will be ok for a few more years eventually it will be too old and that is not want the company want, 96 was a long time ago in car terms. It is like arguing that the MGF in today"s form is as valid as the new MX5. Lotus don't want that levelled at them, they are right up there with the best so they need to keep up and will impress by doing so. Many buyers of new Elises and Exiges were actually old customers too and this gain is not a business model that would satisfy a parent company. With the F1 stuff going on I can imagine a lot of new customers being interested in going to Lotus for the first time, and this is the answer to sustained growth. It is a gamble and I hope it works, for me I guess the entry level Elise is possible and I can't wait the rest of the experience wont include me though!

I disagree, the Elise is so different in terms of construction and design that it is not going to be superceded easily. No-one else is making bonded aluminium cars at that price and size. It's not like it's one steel monocoque compared to all the rest. I don't see why it can't just keep ticking by especially as all the major tooling will have been paid for several times over by now.

[Scuffers]

ewenm said:

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?" Seriously why? it is a very successful car and is the embodiment of Lotus cars. So what if its been running around basically unchanged for a decade, so has many other iconic sports car, like the 911. BMW and Mini sell the same car basically. The Elise should stay in its current form. Of course making subtle changes here and there, but why does it have to go? what sense does that make? If something works, why can it or change it? it doesnt make sense.

I think it's because it is losing them money. Lotus Cars haven't been profitable for 15 years or so according to the original reports on this cahnge of direction.

only cause the money they got for the Elise has been pissed up the wall doing stupid st.

you telling me that they did not make money from doing the VX too?

now they seem intent on pissing much bigger sums of cash up the walls of every expensive motorsport they can from F1 down, won;t be long before the loans run out.

[ESOG]

ewenm said:

I think it's because it is losing them money. Lotus Cars haven't been profitable for 15 years or so according to the original reports on this cahnge of direction.

Perhaps, although a few months ago I remember reading right her eon PH News that Lotus finally posted a quarterly profit in a long time. But yes, overall they have not been profitable, HOWEVER, I cant imagine Lotus being better off without the Elise, regardless of cash flow.

I want to add also, am I alone in my opinion that the new Elise unveiled amongst the other future Loti at the Paris Motor Show was, well, lets just say not as good looking as the original and a but funky?

Edited by ESOG on Monday 27th June 21:53

[anonymous-user]

There must be room for debate whether Lotus Cars has EVER been realistically profitable. None of its many owners have ever appeared able to make a go of it.

Discontinue Elise? Well, what on earth would the "dealers" be selling without that car. Anyway, if Lotus can't at least break even on Elise they haven't got much hope with the other cars! Although it's a motor industry truism that assembling a car always costs pretty much the same, whatever the selling price of the car.

[P9UNK]

Al 450 said:

P9UNK said:

marshalla said:

ESOG said:

Why does the Elise "have to go?"

For the same reason that the 7 had to go. Brand image.

I understand the "why does it have to go" but Lotus are not in the position of some of the other manufacturers, Porsche is different... The Elise needs a better platform and while it will be ok for a few more years eventually it will be too old and that is not want the company want, 96 was a long time ago in car terms. It is like arguing that the MGF in today"s form is as valid as the new MX5. Lotus don't want that levelled at them, they are right up there with the best so they need to keep up and will impress by doing so. Many buyers of new Elises and Exiges were actually old customers too and this gain is not a business model that would satisfy a parent company. With the F1 stuff going on I can imagine a lot of new customers being interested in going to Lotus for the first time, and this is the answer to sustained growth. It is a gamble and I hope it works, for me I guess the entry level Elise is possible and I can't wait the rest of the experience wont include me though!

I disagree, the Elise is so different in terms of construction and design that it is not going to be superceded easily. No-one else is making bonded aluminium cars at that price and size. It's not like it's one steel monocoque compared to all the rest. I don't see why it can't just keep ticking by especially as all the major tooling will have been paid for several times over by now.

I see your argument absolutely, but I think they have found saturation point with the Elise, there simply are not enough new customers and returning older customers are dwindling due to family or like me when you have had 3 Elises do you want another one (yes but you might start to look around etc). I think the new Elise will pull in a lot of new customers as the Elise did in 96 but over all Lotus need a new Elise. Plenty of current owners will buy one even though they say they wont and if the 12c can put a league between it and the Ferrari I think Lotus can supercede the legendary Elise. The old one out of production will become a legend but if they keep building it eventually it will get the 'long in the tooth' criticism etc. I think the show rooms show a lot, it took an awfully long time to shift the 200 RGB Exiges...but who knows...perhaps the Morgan model would be the best fit!