A couple of questions - buying and selling cars for profit
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
A registered company. That would be registered with conmpanies house I guess 
Only if you decide to register a limited liability partnership or limited company. One man band doing weekend trading would tend to be a sole trader and dispense with having to pay Employer's NI and have to submit formal accounts annually, which then remains a matter of public record (along with their personal details as directors) etc. 
Chrisw666 said:
99p shop PAYG sim and £5 credit for each car sold, use a council lock up 1/2 mile from home as 'storage'. Don't go overboard on prep, make sure adverts look a bit amateur.
Sell car 1 as Robert Sole.
Car 2 as Carl Hunt.
Car 3 as Joe King etc etc.
My consultancy fee is beef monster munch, a twix and some diet coke.
Which is why I wouldn't buy a car from an add down as private but with no land line listed. Sell car 1 as Robert Sole.
Car 2 as Carl Hunt.
Car 3 as Joe King etc etc.
My consultancy fee is beef monster munch, a twix and some diet coke.
Yes I would in that case.
The difference is honesty. A straight up trader selling a car sold as seen with no warranty is being honest. A trader pretending to be a private seller is being dishonest.
If they are lying from the outset then I have every rreaqson to suspect they are telling a lot more lies.
The difference is honesty. A straight up trader selling a car sold as seen with no warranty is being honest. A trader pretending to be a private seller is being dishonest.
If they are lying from the outset then I have every rreaqson to suspect they are telling a lot more lies.
Zwoelf said:
Only if you decide to register a limited liability partnership or limited company. One man band doing weekend trading would tend to be a sole trader and dispense with having to pay Employer's NI and have to submit formal accounts annually, which then remains a matter of public record (along with their personal details as directors) etc.
Ok.Thanks.
Zwoelf said:
What about a trade seller advertising a vehicle over £1,000 as a "trade sale, no warranty implied or given" or "sold as seen"?
This sort of thing goes on all the time, and holds no legal weight. A buyers rights under SOGA cannot be excused by whatever a trader writes on a receipt.In any case, there is a BIG difference between a warranty and what legal rights a buyer can expect under the SOGA.
Devil2575 said:
The difference is honesty. A straight up trader selling a car sold as seen with no warranty is being honest.
Honest about using illegal disclaimers and not giving a toss about their obligations under SoGA when selling to a member of the public. Nice honest people to do business with... http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2010/...
OFT report said:
The vast majority of all second hand car faults come to light in the first three months, suggesting many second hand cars sold may not be of satisfactory quality, and are consequently the dealer's responsibility to fix. Despite this, nearly 30 per cent of buyers surveyed who contacted their dealer about a problem said they did not have problems rectified. Consumers who had this problem spend an estimated £425 each, or £85 million per year in total, fixing unresolved faults that are the dealer's obligation to correct.
Consumers could potentially over-pay to the tune of around £580million a year as a result of illegal clocking, which involves adjusting a vehicle to show false mileage. The OFT's study concludes that legitimate reasons for adjusting a vehicle's mileage are very rare, but despite this has identified 50 businesses openly offering 'mileage correction services'. The report makes a number of recommendations aimed at reducing this problem.
Some dealers may be in breach of the law by pretending to be private sellers to evade their legal obligations to consumers, often to offload unsafe or clocked cars, which the OFT estimates accounts for more than £40 million of second hand car sales annually.
One in eleven car dealers rely on illegal disclaimers about the car's history and condition, such as that a car is 'sold as seen' or 'No Refund'.
Many dealers fail to disclose what mechanical and other pre-sale checks they have carried out. The OFT also found one in four dealers failed to supply sufficient information about the vehicle.
Further reading: http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/markets-work/complet...Consumers could potentially over-pay to the tune of around £580million a year as a result of illegal clocking, which involves adjusting a vehicle to show false mileage. The OFT's study concludes that legitimate reasons for adjusting a vehicle's mileage are very rare, but despite this has identified 50 businesses openly offering 'mileage correction services'. The report makes a number of recommendations aimed at reducing this problem.
Some dealers may be in breach of the law by pretending to be private sellers to evade their legal obligations to consumers, often to offload unsafe or clocked cars, which the OFT estimates accounts for more than £40 million of second hand car sales annually.
One in eleven car dealers rely on illegal disclaimers about the car's history and condition, such as that a car is 'sold as seen' or 'No Refund'.
Many dealers fail to disclose what mechanical and other pre-sale checks they have carried out. The OFT also found one in four dealers failed to supply sufficient information about the vehicle.
Enjoy.
Rollcage said:
This sort of thing goes on all the time, and holds no legal weight. A buyers rights under SOGA cannot be excused by whatever a trader writes on a receipt.
In any case, there is a BIG difference between a warranty and what legal rights a buyer can expect under the SOGA.
Quite so, which is where I was leading with that query. In any case, there is a BIG difference between a warranty and what legal rights a buyer can expect under the SOGA.
Zwoelf said:
Sukh13 said:
98elise said:
Techincally anyone who sells a car for a profit needs to declare it for tax purposes.
Not technically correct.If this is the case then would such a private transaction be of any interest to The Revenue? Would they expect me to declare a "profit" if I sold one car that I had used myself and later fetched more money than I paid for it?
Zwoelf said:
Rollcage said:
This sort of thing goes on all the time, and holds no legal weight. A buyers rights under SOGA cannot be excused by whatever a trader writes on a receipt.
In any case, there is a BIG difference between a warranty and what legal rights a buyer can expect under the SOGA.
Quite so, which is where I was leading with that query. In any case, there is a BIG difference between a warranty and what legal rights a buyer can expect under the SOGA.
Devil2575 said:
Chrisw666 said:
99p shop PAYG sim and £5 credit for each car sold, use a council lock up 1/2 mile from home as 'storage'. Don't go overboard on prep, make sure adverts look a bit amateur.
Sell car 1 as Robert Sole.
Car 2 as Carl Hunt.
Car 3 as Joe King etc etc.
My consultancy fee is beef monster munch, a twix and some diet coke.
Which is why I wouldn't buy a car from an add down as private but with no land line listed. Sell car 1 as Robert Sole.
Car 2 as Carl Hunt.
Car 3 as Joe King etc etc.
My consultancy fee is beef monster munch, a twix and some diet coke.
Rollcage said:
If the car is bought with the intention of making money, then any profit should be declared for tax purposes. There is no threshold for the number of cars sold - one is enough. Six seems to be frequently mentioned, but it's simply not true.
I believe you are allowed to buy and sell six cars in a year as a private individual before the HMRC will arbitrarily decide you're a motor trader and tax the heck out of you. This is so that individuals who are 'into' cars can buy and sell a number in a year. However, I suspect if there are other indications that you are a trader then the HMRC will still investigate you.Regardless of the HMRC's stance, as noted above, any trade sale is made subject to the terms implied by the Sale of Goods Act.
PS - Pedantry corner: a leading question is one which supplies its own answer. Zwoelf did not ask a leading question.
PPS - This thread sounds like another chapter in the saga of what the famous "friend" of the PH massive is planning, in between his assorted speeding, crashing, goatee wearing and getting fired exploits. We all have seem to have such naughty friends.
PS - Pedantry corner: a leading question is one which supplies its own answer. Zwoelf did not ask a leading question.
PPS - This thread sounds like another chapter in the saga of what the famous "friend" of the PH massive is planning, in between his assorted speeding, crashing, goatee wearing and getting fired exploits. We all have seem to have such naughty friends.
MarJay said:
I believe you are allowed to buy and sell six cars in a year as a private individual before the HMRC will arbitrarily decide you're a motor trader and tax the heck out of you. This is so that individuals who are 'into' cars can buy and sell a number in a year. However, I suspect if there are other indications that you are a trader then the HMRC will still investigate you.
That's not true. The mystery 6 number actually comes from Autotrader who used to (and maybe still do) insist people file an advert as "trade" rather than "private" if you have placed 6 or more in the year.Cars are no different to anything else. If an accountant does 5 sets of accounts on the side are they liable to tax on those earnings? Of course they are. If a part time builder does 5 bathrooms are they liable to tax? Yes. If a property developer buys and sells 5 houses in a year? Yes. No difference with cars.
Devil2575 said:
Thanks for the tips but I must reiterate, this post is for academic purposes only. I have no interest in becoming a part time motor trader. There seem to be so many people out there at the moment doing it and I wonder how legit these guys are.
I suspect the vast majority are legit. There really is nothing to stop you selling cars. Even not having insurance or not declaring any profits doesn't mean you can't still buy and sell.That is too brief and inaccurate a summary. The Act provides as follows:-
14(2 )For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.
(2B) For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a) fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,
(b) appearance and finish,
(c) freedom from minor defects,
(d) safety, and
(e) durability.
(2C) The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory—
(a) which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made,
(b) where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or
(c) in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.
Clearly, when buying a used car, the buyer cannot expect perfection, but the seller's obligations can still be significant in a trade sale.
I once sold a car for £16,000. I was amazed that anyone would pay that much privately for a non classic car, and the buyer wanted to do the deal at a motorway service station. I went with my goatee wearing cage fighter friend and all was fine, but I still think that the buyer was bonkers. Or, maybe I don't - he evaluated me as trustworthy and I made the same evaluation of him. The car is still going, 14 years on, according to the DVLA website.
14(2 )For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.
(2B) For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a) fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,
(b) appearance and finish,
(c) freedom from minor defects,
(d) safety, and
(e) durability.
(2C) The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory—
(a) which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made,
(b) where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or
(c) in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.
Clearly, when buying a used car, the buyer cannot expect perfection, but the seller's obligations can still be significant in a trade sale.
I once sold a car for £16,000. I was amazed that anyone would pay that much privately for a non classic car, and the buyer wanted to do the deal at a motorway service station. I went with my goatee wearing cage fighter friend and all was fine, but I still think that the buyer was bonkers. Or, maybe I don't - he evaluated me as trustworthy and I made the same evaluation of him. The car is still going, 14 years on, according to the DVLA website.
Edited by Breadvan73 on Tuesday 28th June 08:52
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