Anyone feel sorry for McLaren? What could they do different?

[E30M3SE]

NSX at launch was £55K 1990/91, a Carrara 2 would set you back £48K in 1991, a 348tb was £75k in 1991, all figures are list sans any extras, (taken from GG).

[nouze]

daveco said:

It looks like a cross between a Saleen and a 360 Modena

Surely you wanted to say that it simply looks like bigger Lotus Evora

[Mo D]

nouze said:

Surely you wanted to say that it simply looks like bigger Lotus Evora

Agree! I'm often confused when I look at the front end of the 12c. It does look like a bigger Evora from the front. I think that's the biggest issue really design wise. It's not dramatic like the Lambo Murci. But then it wasn't designed to be dramatic. Certainly not with Ron Dennis at the helm.

However, like many have already said, the 12c will sell and will meet or exceed Mclaren's targets regarding sales. And I would buy one if I had the cash, its sleek, understated appearance would appeal to me, more so than the 458's extravagant lines and horrible (Audi like) LED headlights.

[JBL930]

Does this look better?

[Plotloss]

No.

[JBL930]

R500POP said:

There is a hint of Speed Twelve in the front of that beast.

And carrying over the 250 GTO bonnet vents

[JBL930]

Plotloss said:

No.

I agree, but maybe somewhere in the middle?

[PJ S]

Christ that's horrendous!
Looks like a Pixar drawing for Cars 3.
The 'face' looks as if it's surprised/terrified.
Those door mirrors were a complete after-thought, irrespective of any justification on lightness, etc - they remind me of the type you'd see on Superbikes. A pipe cleaner bolted to the fairing, holding the cigarette box of a mirror housing.
Absolutely no flair until it gets to the air scoops on the rear quarter panel, which do mimic the McLaren logo.

To be honest, there's nothing exciting about the MP412 - it is just another expensive car that you'd glance at in a car park.
Put it next to a TVR Sagaris (Tuscan 2 as well) and if you're honest with yourself, you know which would have a raft of people round it and asking you to blip the throttle a bit.

Kudos for McLaren having the bravado to market an anonymous very expensive car, but if I were to be fortunate to order one, I honestly don't think I would.
And as for ageing or ageless - all designs age fairly quickly as new designs are introduced.
It's perfectly understandable human nature to view some designs as ageless if they have a soft spot for the brand/model.
Anyone who suggests the E-Type and Muira are such designs needs to take off their rose-tinted spectacles.
They look like the era they belonged to, and offer nothing today - doesn't mean they can't be appreciated, but lets not kid ourselves the design language has any relevance in 2011.
They are by all accounts, antiques, of which there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

Edited by PJ S on Saturday 16th July 00:44

[Plotloss]

JBL930 said:

I agree, but maybe somewhere in the middle?

The 12C GT3 looks marvellous, for a GT car.

I think the road car is perfectly elegant enough as it stands personally. I cannot wait to see one in Flame Black in the flesh.

[JBL930]

Plotloss said:

JBL930 said:

I agree, but maybe somewhere in the middle?

The 12C GT3 looks marvellous, for a GT car.

I think the road car is perfectly elegant enough as it stands personally. I cannot wait to see one in Flame Black in the flesh.

I really like the look of the stock car, especially from the back... just thought those that wanted a bit more might like it? It's certainly more 'in your face'.
I'm all for stealth, wolf is sheep's clothing, the production McLaren is certainly that

[Plotloss]

Be interesting to see if they do a road version of the GT3.

[MGJohn]

RemyMartin said:

Im sorry but how many people have actually seen one on the road, in reality. Not a car show, not a photo.

I'm fortunate enough to within the vicinity of Woking so I've seen one. They look spectacular. I seriously believe alot of people on here are haters because they dont like mclarens f1 drivers or team.

Oh and as for soul. Hate that word. Much like in the motorcycling world where people say there Ducati or MV has soul and a Jap/German bike does not. It's a byword alot of the time to make up for the fact they bought a unreliable st heap. Maybe not so much more modern stuff but definitely stuff of old.

My choice my money. I'd have the Mclaren.

So would I have the McLaren .. and the MV-Agusta ....
..

[PaulFontaine]

The MP looks like it was designed by engineers not stylists so its a form follows function type car but my bet is that it will age very fast

[Arun_D]

PaulFontaine said:

The MP looks like it was designed by engineers not stylists....

This is being said an awful lot, but does it really? If it wasn't a product of Mclaren would people still be saying this? My guess is no.

[Plotloss]

Arun_D said:

This is being said an awful lot, but does it really? If it wasn't a product of Mclaren would people still be saying this? My guess is no.

It's correct in a way as they designed the chassis and then skinned it, the body being constrained by the underlying monocell and subframes so it was designed from the inside out, unlike most cars.

[Jackgreen]

williamp said:

The Autocar road test (29th June 2011) tested the McLaren and found it has the following better then the 458:

chepaer
more economical
lighter
faster to 0-60
higher top speed
smaller dimensions
more power and torque
It has a more comfortable ride- "at times, comparable with an S-class"

Its the first supercar to use hydraulic anti-roll bars

They also felt that whilst its speed is wquite a feat, "making it capable of lapping a circuit almost as quickly as a BTCC race car is even more impressive"

So it is a very quick car. And a better car then the Ferrari.

But dissappointing for me is that, despite Autocar's aims to "produce the most complete, objective tests in the business..." they decided to be subjective and use something untangable and improbable called "soul" to say that somehow the 458 is "better"

Maybe that's why Chris Harris left Autocar- they are still afriad to admit something is better then a Ferrai.

I'm talking about track tests, pure numbers. Just now I have latest CAR Mag in my hands with very interesting insight about that dramatic test (Worst nightmare to McLaren, as they say) and McLaren was slower even on track tires, ESP off or ON, didn't matter.

For me that Top Gear 3 sec time gap is just rather intriguing.

[andy665]

I had a long chat with a business acquaintance on Wednesday who has driven the McLaren extensively. He absolutely agreed with what most of the reports have said, that in virtually all quantifiable areas the McLaren beats the Italia but the Italia is a lot more desiarable.

He said that the McLaren felt aloof, almost Audi like, clinical and efficient but lacking the sense of occassion that you almost demand of such a car. he said the engineers were really frustrated as they have achieved all of their goals but its still not deemed as desirable as the Italia

Edited by andy665 on Saturday 16th July 22:23

[PaulFontaine]

Well you can't apply logic to emotion. Cars like this are all about stirring the heart. I have no doubt that the MP4 is a superior car in every way possible to the 458 and i really do hope that it does well as I would love to see Mclaren become a mainstream car company rather than one that makes a few hundred every 15 years or so. While I am not the biggest fan of ferrari even I have to admit that they are special in a lot of little ways and intangible one too. They look stunning and sound even better. Probably realistically speaking the same thing with the Nissan GTR yes it amazing this and that but to me it looks like a fat ugly beast and I'd rather have a slower prettier car that that appeals more to my heart such as the 911. Not even close in performance but again far more appealing than the Nissan.

It just like when you went out with the bad but exciting girl when you knew the other one was a much better choice

[busta]

PaulFontaine said:

Probably realistically speaking the same thing with the Nissan GTR yes it amazing this and that but to me it looks like a fat ugly beast and I'd rather have a slower prettier car that that appeals more to my heart such as the 911. Not even close in performance but again far more appealing than the Nissan.

It just like when you went out with the bad but exciting girl when you knew the other one was a much better choice

'Prettier' 911? Really? Looks wise I'd say the GTR and 911 are on a par. Are you sure you're not confusing 'looks' with 'image'?

[LuS1fer]

busta said:

'Prettier' 911? Really? Looks wise I'd say the GTR and 911 are on a par. Are you sure you're not confusing 'looks' with 'image'?

I'm pretty sure he's not. Maybe prettier is going some but the 911 is an organic shape that has been round for 50 odd years, the GTR is a rather bulky generic Japanese effort that will quickly fade historically when the next one comes along.