When did mercs stop being built like a merc
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sadly that was some sort of trend at the time, IIRC Lopez was often pointed out as a main influence. Somehow the engineers lost control and the bean counters took over. The Golf 3 or the Astra from that era where pretty bad as well eg. Most notable with the Golf as the Golf 2 was such durable over engineered car...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's the one I've just bought, it has a little bit of the worm that needs sorting but not as bad as some later cars I've seen. Apart from the airbag steering wheel I think all of the interior and exterior is as the older 260E, so why the half facelift term is used I am unsure. It's more like the older version with a different steering wheel and newer engine as far as I can tell.Kolbenkopp said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sadly that was some sort of trend at the time, IIRC Lopez was often pointed out as a main influence. Somehow the engineers lost control and the bean counters took over. The Golf 3 or the Astra from that era where pretty bad as well eg. Most notable with the Golf as the Golf 2 was such durable over engineered car...
Other brands, such as Jaguar were moving up the quality totem pole- Jaguar with the Aj16 and outstanding X300 XJ.
I think Lopez is still around. Last I heard he hadn't made a good name for himself around the engineering community in the USA either. Guys like that always tend to climb the ladder well somehow, knowing how to play the game.
I was talking to a German engineer who reports to me and who used to work for Mercedes Benz - he told me about a Merdes Benz W124 diesel taxi that had achieved 6.4 million kms without an engine overhaul. Mercedes Benz took the vehicle off him for inspection, and commended him by offering him a new E class. However he declined took payment to buy a newer lower mileage W124!
Here's a nice little advert by Mercedes Benz- I'm not sure if it was aired in the UK ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nj-XvnslPw
Edited by Marquis Rex on Wednesday 23 November 00:49
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't know, but I feel that way about BMW and Jaguar too. BMW used to make focused driving machines, with imposing shark nosed styling and driver centric dashboards and amongst the finest naturally aspirated straight six, V8 and V12 engines in the world. They offered 6 cylinder engines where others offered 4 cylinders (eg Merc 190 vs BMW 320i), Bangle destroyed the brand DNA inside and out, and now they've slumped into bland styling, the engines are highly boosted 4 cylinders- lets see how durable these are in years to come.Jaguars quality was on the rise, they were always form over function with a jaw dropping styling, usually low and wide, sweeping, curvacious and sensuous. And the end of the 90's their engines specific output and BMEPs were certainly supeior to Mercedes and a few BMWs of the time also. Then they had to change, they destroyed their brand DNA, for pretentious Citroen-esque fashion and a swish but vulgar front end and a behind a mother couldn't love. I won't talk of their recent quality
. However they had to change as the market has responded fabulously to it. Perhaps they've appealed to a different demographic. May be Mercedes just jumped on the more consumerist band wagen and the styling altered to suit the whimsical tastes of today to get sales.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and my tastes are rooted firmly in the past...
Marquis Rex said:
[...]May be Mercedes just jumped on the more consumerist band wagen and the styling altered to suit the whimsical tastes of today to get sales.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and my tastes are rooted firmly in the past...
Probably repeating myself and making wild assumptions, but IMVHO at some point around 20 to 25 years ago the MB shop was taken over by the non engineering side. They introduced modern management methods, pointed out to the board how to make more money out of the brand, got the nod and then started doing so. Perhaps I'm just getting old and my tastes are rooted firmly in the past...
So you have the most valuable car brand in the world. The reputation comes from excellent build quality and a no costs approach to engineering. But the cars are expensive to make. Not good for profit. Easy way: you start cutting corners = more (short term) profit. The reputation thing takes ages to erode.
But that is not enough, a lot of markets that MB did not have a product for round early 90es. Very easy to go down/cross market as a premium brand. The public assumes that since it's from MB it will be good. So they set out to occupy every niche out there => A, B, C, CL, CLS, E, G, GL, GLK, M, R, S, SL, SLK, SLS, Vaneo.
I'm sure it made them some big money (a substantial amount of which will have been wasted with episodes such as the Chrylser fiasco). But now the brand is diluted, it has lost its "specialness". This would take a loooong time to make right again.
But do they want to do that at all? It's not like the competitors did not do the same things the last decades more or less. So why bother? Just keep up with / slightly ahead of the competition.
IMVHO it is just a sign of the times. You don't like it, I don't like it, pistonheads in general do not like it. And judging by the comments the 400E gets when dad takes it to MB for the yearly service, even the factory guys (independant of age) know the current stuff is just a pale shadow of what used to be.
I don't have too much of a problem with this. I have little to zero interest in new cars in general with the stupidly complicated engine management systems and OBD systems and the invariable Mil lights that flag up. I'll buy close to new for my utilitarian winter transport and just continue buying cars from a golden era (such as the W124 Merc or the E21 to E24 BMW, 993 era Porsches) from nicer climates in Arizona, California etc and close to perfect condition.
They're not as 'good' as modern cars in terms of ultimate cornering G or Nth degree engine efficiency but the question should be- is the difference SO MUCH that it makes such a difference to my day to day driving enjoyment?
They're not as 'good' as modern cars in terms of ultimate cornering G or Nth degree engine efficiency but the question should be- is the difference SO MUCH that it makes such a difference to my day to day driving enjoyment?
Although BMW did small 6 cylinders when others had 4 -it's not an idea that caught on as Audi and Merc do pretty well without them -in fact most car makers choose 2 litre 4 cylinder.
Merc when they were bomb proof enginnering them -where no more expensive in real terms to when they are now - why would a today built bomb proof E class cost double the sector price? -when it didn't in the old days?
Merc when they were bomb proof enginnering them -where no more expensive in real terms to when they are now - why would a today built bomb proof E class cost double the sector price? -when it didn't in the old days?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes but electronics are cheap compared to the robust mehcnical and in built of the Merc. Fully machined air mass meter of the KE Jetronic fuel injection system with teflon bearings to keep the friction low, forged fully counterweighted crankshaft, fully galvanised body, heat shielding where others wouldn't have bothered etc and then there was the extensive durability testinganonymous said:
[redacted]
Ah yes, I agree, the mechanics of a Merc were the bit you paid for, however, a W124 E-class in standard spec doesn't really exist, all of them would have been specfied accordingly, taking the price way, way north of £35,000. The reality is that in todays money you'd be spending well over £80k for an E class coupeanonymous said:
[redacted]
The W140 S600L was just over a hundred grand at launch and so is a brand new one 20 years on and at all points in between. The successor the W220s have mostly all rusted away already but I am sure it is because of grey imports driving the price down and not the lower quality.Ben
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I didn't say grey imports (it was too awkward and new for most buyers to do that) -i simply highlighted price differentials scandalGoing back to the basic E class it cost £17460 in 1988 which is £36514 today -whereas a figure of 50- 60k was mentioned .A basic e class costs 29k today - so 1988 bomb proof is more expensive - BUT not by the ridiculous almost double figure suggested
My '99 e200 is rubbish quality wise, there is rust on the door corners, the dash creaks and also if someone sits on the wrong bit of the passenger seat then it moves(lever is on left hand side of seat) also it sets the airbag light off which then sets it into limp mode, then to top it all off you have to take the battery connections off every once in a while because the electrics have a fit!
Another example of an expensively put together car was the 993 Porsches and the Turbo cost close to 100,000 GBP when it was new.
The latest one hasn't is cheaper in todays money and I think cheaper in absolute terms compared to its predecessor (If Im wrong I'm sure someone will correct me)
The latest one hasn't is cheaper in todays money and I think cheaper in absolute terms compared to its predecessor (If Im wrong I'm sure someone will correct me)
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The 2010 price of 88 BASIC 4 pot (not the top spec 300 coupe you later used for comaprison) today is £36514 - which yes is more than the 29k of a current basic e class - BUT nowhere near the 50-60k you mentioned .Also a 300 coupe was almost double the price of a basic E classI can only assume it was a typo on your part when stating "basic four-pot E class" you meant to say "most expensive e class at the time"
Btw in 88 the basic price for a 300 coupe was £32210.It was 35k in 1992
I'm not disagreeing per se with what you say - just your numbers involved in relation to a basic 4 pot e class
Marquis Rex said:
Yes but electronics are cheap compared to the robust mehcnical and in built of the Merc. Fully machined air mass meter of the KE Jetronic fuel injection system with teflon bearings to keep the friction low, forged fully counterweighted crankshaft, fully galvanised body, heat shielding where others wouldn't have bothered etc and then there was the extensive durability testing
The W124 didn't have a galvanised body. Audi's did at the time and it's a shame the W124 wasn't galvanised as it would be one of the most durable cars you could buy today if it were.I have a 230E from 1990 and the build quality is exceptional. I wont be parted from it.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff