RE: Driven: 2012 M/Y Lotus Evora
Discussion
Verde said:
Apologies in advance for the random sounding thoughts but there are so many issues that come to mind:
Lotus is best when building near-racing cars. That is their heritage and it's that value that is imparted to all of their cars. Light, minimal, etc. And building such things tend to create temperamental and edgy cars that reek of 'kit' nature and need to spend more time at the shop. Additionally not that many people want pure sports cars. They say they do buy then complain about the leather, the window switches and turn to Porsche's or some other sports car ne GT car.
So in trying to compete with these more feature laden, comfortable GT-like cars, they are at a disadvantage. I have yet to see any company build a lightweight, feature rich, high-performance sports car. Rossion comes closest, but they are even more expensive, still seem to have some kit-like qualities, and the sounds from that odd engine are just not right. No matter how fast the wild thing goes. But at least they are not as trouble-prone as a Lotus.
So for Lotus to succeed in their 5-year plan, that have to leave their racing heritage in their street cars, build sports cars that are 700 pounds heavier, ladle on the features and luxury functions and then add a yet-bigger motor to push it all around. The classic Lotus owners will be angry, but the Porsche buyers will have a realistic choice.
FWIW, I don't think they can shed their DNA and make this transition. I should add that this new Evora, though slow to evole, is getting much closer. However in the U.S. it is likely all moot. No visibility or marketing of these cars. The dealerships are all embarrassments (or at least those I've visited).
Admittedly for this I am happy because I hope they continue to evolve cars like the Exige. The finest pure sports car of our time.
I think the Lotus unreliability quip is a bit of an anachronism now to be fair.Lotus is best when building near-racing cars. That is their heritage and it's that value that is imparted to all of their cars. Light, minimal, etc. And building such things tend to create temperamental and edgy cars that reek of 'kit' nature and need to spend more time at the shop. Additionally not that many people want pure sports cars. They say they do buy then complain about the leather, the window switches and turn to Porsche's or some other sports car ne GT car.
So in trying to compete with these more feature laden, comfortable GT-like cars, they are at a disadvantage. I have yet to see any company build a lightweight, feature rich, high-performance sports car. Rossion comes closest, but they are even more expensive, still seem to have some kit-like qualities, and the sounds from that odd engine are just not right. No matter how fast the wild thing goes. But at least they are not as trouble-prone as a Lotus.
So for Lotus to succeed in their 5-year plan, that have to leave their racing heritage in their street cars, build sports cars that are 700 pounds heavier, ladle on the features and luxury functions and then add a yet-bigger motor to push it all around. The classic Lotus owners will be angry, but the Porsche buyers will have a realistic choice.
FWIW, I don't think they can shed their DNA and make this transition. I should add that this new Evora, though slow to evole, is getting much closer. However in the U.S. it is likely all moot. No visibility or marketing of these cars. The dealerships are all embarrassments (or at least those I've visited).
Admittedly for this I am happy because I hope they continue to evolve cars like the Exige. The finest pure sports car of our time.
Edited by Verde on Thursday 15th September 06:14
zebedee said:
I think the Lotus unreliability quip is a bit of an anachronism now to be fair.
I think that rather depends on how you define "reliability". They don't tend to break down any more, but things still go wrong more often than they should - their assembly line quality control isn't up to that of a mainstream manufacturer and some of their minor component design/selection still leaves a fair bit to be desired. However, the biggest place they fall down is in the "perceived quality" stakes because the big German manufacturers have been drilling it into buyers' heads for years that quality is defined by the noise the door makes when it shuts and the type of plastic used for the lower door cards. Basically, the general car buying public associate build quality almost entirely with a feeling of solidity and weight, which is a bit unfortunate for a company which tries to build light cars.
kambites said:
I think that rather depends on how you define "reliability". They don't tend to break down any more, but things still go wrong more often than they should - their assembly line quality control isn't up to that of a mainstream manufacturer and some of their minor component design/selection still leaves a fair bit to be desired.
However, the biggest place they fall down is in the "perceived quality" stakes because the big German manufacturers have been drilling it into buyers' heads for years that quality is defined by the noise the door makes when it shuts and the type of plastic used for the lower door cards. Basically, the general car buying public associate build quality almost entirely with a feeling of solidity and weight, which is a bit unfortunate for a company which tries to build light cars.
7 or 8 years of Elise ownership - a failed clutch slave cylinder (I think an AP Racing part, so hardly poor?) and a seized window mechanism (cost £50 to fix). That's it, other than 1 exhaust and tyres. Actually there is very little to go wrong as it is such a simple car.However, the biggest place they fall down is in the "perceived quality" stakes because the big German manufacturers have been drilling it into buyers' heads for years that quality is defined by the noise the door makes when it shuts and the type of plastic used for the lower door cards. Basically, the general car buying public associate build quality almost entirely with a feeling of solidity and weight, which is a bit unfortunate for a company which tries to build light cars.
Agreed on your perceived quality issue too, especially as companies like BMW seem to have horrendous problems with VANOS etc and no-one seems to mention it, whereas you say you have an Elise and they say "K-series, ooooh you'll get head gasket failure"! The feel of the 2 Evoras I have driven has been very solid indeed, other than the feedback from the gear lever, so perhaps they have worked on that issue too.
zebedee said:
7 or 8 years of Elise ownership - a failed clutch slave cylinder (I think an AP Racing part, so hardly poor?) and a seized window mechanism (cost £50 to fix). That's it, other than 1 exhaust and tyres. Actually there is very little to go wrong as it is such a simple car.
Agreed on your perceived quality issue too, especially as companies like BMW seem to have horrendous problems with VANOS etc and no-one seems to mention it, whereas you say you have an Elise and they say "K-series, ooooh you'll get head gasket failure"! The feel of the 2 Evoras I have driven has been very solid indeed, other than the feedback from the gear lever, so perhaps they have worked on that issue too.
In the first 6 months of ownership of an Elise S1 I had:Agreed on your perceived quality issue too, especially as companies like BMW seem to have horrendous problems with VANOS etc and no-one seems to mention it, whereas you say you have an Elise and they say "K-series, ooooh you'll get head gasket failure"! The feel of the 2 Evoras I have driven has been very solid indeed, other than the feedback from the gear lever, so perhaps they have worked on that issue too.
Door screws rusting, stuck throttle cable and boot mechanism jam.
So thats not great for a new car.
Still not as bad as a new Honda I owned which had failed ABS, blown door speakers, fried alarm system, warped brake discs and a battery that would die after 5 days of not driving it.
So every manufacturer makes duff cars and good cars.
perceived quality is more about fit and finish than mechanical reliability and while the Evora is a step up for Lotus, it still isn't as quality a place to be in feel as a well appointed Audi A3. (though in my opinion Porsche doesn't feel much better)
Mikeyboy said:
it still isn't as quality a place to be in feel as a well appointed Audi A3. (though in my opinion Porsche doesn't feel much better)
I've been in Audis and they feel pretty ordinary I reckon. I had an Evora for a week and it felt very special indeed. OK the buttons were a bit hidden from view, until you knew where they all were and what they did it was annoying, but not after that. leather and metal was nice, ambient cabin lighting, great seats - drove it from Brum to Spa non-stop (other than fuel) it was a really nice place to be.kambites said:
zebedee said:
I think the Lotus unreliability quip is a bit of an anachronism now to be fair.
I think that rather depends on how you define "reliability". They don't tend to break down any more, but things still go wrong more often than they should - their assembly line quality control isn't up to that of a mainstream manufacturer and some of their minor component design/selection still leaves a fair bit to be desired. However, the biggest place they fall down is in the "perceived quality" stakes because the big German manufacturers have been drilling it into buyers' heads for years that quality is defined by the noise the door makes when it shuts and the type of plastic used for the lower door cards. Basically, the general car buying public associate build quality almost entirely with a feeling of solidity and weight, which is a bit unfortunate for a company which tries to build light cars.
Who actually makes a decent interior these days ? Outside of a phantom, maybach or a rapide do really great interiors exist ? They all seem to be made on a shoestring budget regardless of the car's rrp. Ferraris seem pretty good mind you.
Edited by jackal on Saturday 17th September 00:19
I think its really important to separate design / layout and quality of materials (both are important). Sit in a Bentley from the 80s or 90s and the switchgear is all over the place. It matters a lot less because a) there is so much space in the cabin that driver comfort is always high and b) the quality of the materials is incomparable to practically anything else on the road: proper Connolly hides, beautiful solid metal globes to direct air, bespoke "organ stops" to control the heating etc.
The only car that ever came close at that time for cabin ambience was Jaguar. All to do with quality of materials as the design was pretty shocking.
Looking at modern cars, I was shocked to see the decline in quality of materials from say 993 Porsche to 997, or E39 M5 to E61. The E61 leather just feels like thick vinyl, like most car leather these days.
One car interior i always loved, but I dont think this will play well with the crowd, is the Honda NSX. I dont know how Honda did it, but their switchgear in the 90s was nigh on perfect.
The only car that ever came close at that time for cabin ambience was Jaguar. All to do with quality of materials as the design was pretty shocking.
Looking at modern cars, I was shocked to see the decline in quality of materials from say 993 Porsche to 997, or E39 M5 to E61. The E61 leather just feels like thick vinyl, like most car leather these days.
One car interior i always loved, but I dont think this will play well with the crowd, is the Honda NSX. I dont know how Honda did it, but their switchgear in the 90s was nigh on perfect.
Hate to say this, but the Evora gets tons of press here in the USA. While it's usually overwhelmingly favorable, the fact that the test cars in their press "fleet" are fun to drive is often tempered by things like failing synchros in the gearbox, worn clutches, and the like - probably entirely the fault of the test rags but nonetheless it would be wise for the firm to have each car gone over thoroughly after a few thousand test miles.
That said I simply can't warm to the car. The styling reminds me of a melted Stormtrooper helmet. No matter how powerful the V-6 might be with a supercharger on it, it's still a Camry mill in drag. That was never a problem with the Celica engine in the Elise/Exige because even in the Celica it was Mr. Toad's Wild Ride for such a tiny 4-pot.
I despair for Lotus under the new CEO. Every instinct tells me he's going to drive the company headfirst into receivership. Porsche might be able to survive the Cayenne, Cajun, and Panamera but that's because they've got a cachet that would require a decade of producing nothing but milk floats and breadvans to spoil. Lotus has no such cachet here in the States, and even the wildest-eyed enthusiasts recall how utterly fragile and unreliable their products once were. Those who bought the stunningly beautiful early Esprits because of two Bond films will still tell anyone who'll listen their tales of woe at the mercy of blown head gaskets, fried valves, disintegrated water pumps and of course the Angel of Darkness, Lucas. The earlier models were all much, much worse though amazing fun to drive until they broke down exiting the parking garage. Now that the Elise and Exige are gone from our shores due to emissions issues...the headway those excellent cars made for the company will be lost. If on their return to America they carry a significant weight and price increase, Lotus will be in very big trouble.
That said I simply can't warm to the car. The styling reminds me of a melted Stormtrooper helmet. No matter how powerful the V-6 might be with a supercharger on it, it's still a Camry mill in drag. That was never a problem with the Celica engine in the Elise/Exige because even in the Celica it was Mr. Toad's Wild Ride for such a tiny 4-pot.
I despair for Lotus under the new CEO. Every instinct tells me he's going to drive the company headfirst into receivership. Porsche might be able to survive the Cayenne, Cajun, and Panamera but that's because they've got a cachet that would require a decade of producing nothing but milk floats and breadvans to spoil. Lotus has no such cachet here in the States, and even the wildest-eyed enthusiasts recall how utterly fragile and unreliable their products once were. Those who bought the stunningly beautiful early Esprits because of two Bond films will still tell anyone who'll listen their tales of woe at the mercy of blown head gaskets, fried valves, disintegrated water pumps and of course the Angel of Darkness, Lucas. The earlier models were all much, much worse though amazing fun to drive until they broke down exiting the parking garage. Now that the Elise and Exige are gone from our shores due to emissions issues...the headway those excellent cars made for the company will be lost. If on their return to America they carry a significant weight and price increase, Lotus will be in very big trouble.
2 things I have to say:
The first is a bit off topic but I've been meaning to comment on it. In regards to the Evora's transmission, it has become fast-tracked into the criticism of it being nothing less than "horrid" and "just plain horrible". I have also read that it is a core weak spot on the car and has suffered numerous faults/breakage while in the hands of automotive journalists. Does anyone else see a very obvious pattern here with the durability of transmissions in ALL Lotus's through out the years?
Especially all incarnations of our beloved Esprit. anyone who knows anything about Lotus can tell you from first hand experience or reiterate claims from the countless write ups over the years that the Esprit's transmission has been its Achilles heal since day one. And of course we all know that because of the weak transmission the Esprit never really got the power it so deserved and more importantly had the potential to deliver, not until the introduction of the V8 of course, but even then 350hp isnt all that impressive in the company of the Esprits competitive exotica which practically none of them had less than 400hp right out the box.
And now the Evoras tranny is being criticized in much the same way and maybe not so ironically seemingly suffers from the same 2nd gear synchro defect.
Okay okay, so whats my point. My point is simply this; Even though Lotus doesnt churn out even an iota of the amount of cars off the assembly line has their european counterparts (i.e. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc) surely Lotus produces enough cars off the assembly line AND gets enough press and customer inquiries to warrant a company like Tremec or Borg Warner to step in with a transmission ready and willing to be mated to the full line of Lotus Cars?
Why not right? Tremec and Borg Warner trannys can be found in the likes of Corvettes, Mustangs, Vipers, etc. Granted they are big business and geared for American Muscle (pun intended
) but I at one point there was this guy who had become a bit of an internet sensation in the Lotus world when he took his custom built BRIGHT YELLOW Esprit V8 and attempted a world speed record, all the while he had figured out a way to overcome the Esprit tranny and he had replaced it with a Tremec 6 speed as well. Then IIRC he went on to work with helping to link up interested Lotus Esprit owners to do the same thing, a Tremec 6 speed conversion, it consisted something of a special drive shaft option only if the Esprit owner just wanted a bit of better performance from the original tranny. And the best part was IIRC it was all for around $6 grand. Which isnt half bad at all!
I had 3 Mustang 5.0's as a teenager/early 20's and I had put a Tremec in each one of them. They can handle up to 500hp and same torque capacity for a mere $3 grand. It was well worth it since my Stangs were worked to the brim and pushing mid-400hp. I beat the ever loving s
t out of those transmissions and they NEVER once let me down. NOT ONCE!
The first is a bit off topic but I've been meaning to comment on it. In regards to the Evora's transmission, it has become fast-tracked into the criticism of it being nothing less than "horrid" and "just plain horrible". I have also read that it is a core weak spot on the car and has suffered numerous faults/breakage while in the hands of automotive journalists. Does anyone else see a very obvious pattern here with the durability of transmissions in ALL Lotus's through out the years?
Especially all incarnations of our beloved Esprit. anyone who knows anything about Lotus can tell you from first hand experience or reiterate claims from the countless write ups over the years that the Esprit's transmission has been its Achilles heal since day one. And of course we all know that because of the weak transmission the Esprit never really got the power it so deserved and more importantly had the potential to deliver, not until the introduction of the V8 of course, but even then 350hp isnt all that impressive in the company of the Esprits competitive exotica which practically none of them had less than 400hp right out the box.
And now the Evoras tranny is being criticized in much the same way and maybe not so ironically seemingly suffers from the same 2nd gear synchro defect.
Okay okay, so whats my point. My point is simply this; Even though Lotus doesnt churn out even an iota of the amount of cars off the assembly line has their european counterparts (i.e. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc) surely Lotus produces enough cars off the assembly line AND gets enough press and customer inquiries to warrant a company like Tremec or Borg Warner to step in with a transmission ready and willing to be mated to the full line of Lotus Cars?
Why not right? Tremec and Borg Warner trannys can be found in the likes of Corvettes, Mustangs, Vipers, etc. Granted they are big business and geared for American Muscle (pun intended
) but I at one point there was this guy who had become a bit of an internet sensation in the Lotus world when he took his custom built BRIGHT YELLOW Esprit V8 and attempted a world speed record, all the while he had figured out a way to overcome the Esprit tranny and he had replaced it with a Tremec 6 speed as well. Then IIRC he went on to work with helping to link up interested Lotus Esprit owners to do the same thing, a Tremec 6 speed conversion, it consisted something of a special drive shaft option only if the Esprit owner just wanted a bit of better performance from the original tranny. And the best part was IIRC it was all for around $6 grand. Which isnt half bad at all!I had 3 Mustang 5.0's as a teenager/early 20's and I had put a Tremec in each one of them. They can handle up to 500hp and same torque capacity for a mere $3 grand. It was well worth it since my Stangs were worked to the brim and pushing mid-400hp. I beat the ever loving s
t out of those transmissions and they NEVER once let me down. NOT ONCE!All cars have problems ... Especially modern porsches and ferraris.
http://www.fcars.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44984-...
boxster IMS, RMS, 997 failures, 996 3.2's and its arguably disgraceful that in 4 generations of Ferrari V8's over 20 years or more they still havent made a manifold that doesn't break (sometimes as earlu as 6k miles !!!)
only difference is, when a lotus has a problem there is a huge historical stigma sttached so its doubly worse in the eyes of the owner, prospective buyer, magazine reader, forum browser etc..
i've owned an Elan, Esprit S4 and two elises and apart from a failed VHPD (well, most of them went bang lets be honest) no other problems to grumble about. The elan used to snap gearchange cables periodically but then it was chipped to buggery so more my fault than anyone elses.
http://www.fcars.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44984-...
boxster IMS, RMS, 997 failures, 996 3.2's and its arguably disgraceful that in 4 generations of Ferrari V8's over 20 years or more they still havent made a manifold that doesn't break (sometimes as earlu as 6k miles !!!)
only difference is, when a lotus has a problem there is a huge historical stigma sttached so its doubly worse in the eyes of the owner, prospective buyer, magazine reader, forum browser etc..
i've owned an Elan, Esprit S4 and two elises and apart from a failed VHPD (well, most of them went bang lets be honest) no other problems to grumble about. The elan used to snap gearchange cables periodically but then it was chipped to buggery so more my fault than anyone elses.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 18th September 11:55
Usergonemad said:
Lotus has no such cachet here in the States, and even the wildest-eyed enthusiasts recall how utterly fragile and unreliable their products once were. Those who bought the stunningly beautiful early Esprits because of two Bond films will still tell anyone who'll listen their tales of woe at the mercy of blown head gaskets, fried valves, disintegrated water pumps and of course the Angel of Darkness, Lucas. The earlier models were all much, much worse though amazing fun to drive until they broke down exiting the parking garage. Now that the Elise and Exige are gone from our shores due to emissions issues...the headway those excellent cars made for the company will be lost. If on their return to America they carry a significant weight and price increase, Lotus will be in very big trouble.
Usual generalisations, my Esprit (NA '83 MY) has been in my family from new, and has done over 60k spirited miles. None of the failures you mention have occured, the AC even still works fine. We have had a couple of minor problems as with any car, but none major. Early Turbos on the other handare much more prone to failure, from a few guys I know that have them.jackal said:
All cars have problems ... Especially modern porsches and ferraris.
http://www.fcars.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44984-...
boxster IMS, RMS, 997 failures, 996 3.2's and its arguably disgraceful that in 4 generations of Ferrari V8's over 20 years or more they still havent made a manifold that doesn't break (sometimes as earlu as 6k miles !!!)
only difference is, when a lotus has a problem there is a huge historical stigma sttached so its doubly worse in the eyes of the owner, prospective buyer, magazine reader, forum browser etc..
i've owned an Elan, Esprit S4 and two elises and apart from a failed VHPD (well, most of them went bang lets be honest) no other problems to grumble about. The elan used to snap gearchange cables periodically but then it was chipped to buggery so more my fault than anyone elses.
Good post. Since we are all now on the forums i cant believe how many engine problems Porsche has had. I always thought they where indestructible.http://www.fcars.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44984-...
boxster IMS, RMS, 997 failures, 996 3.2's and its arguably disgraceful that in 4 generations of Ferrari V8's over 20 years or more they still havent made a manifold that doesn't break (sometimes as earlu as 6k miles !!!)
only difference is, when a lotus has a problem there is a huge historical stigma sttached so its doubly worse in the eyes of the owner, prospective buyer, magazine reader, forum browser etc..
i've owned an Elan, Esprit S4 and two elises and apart from a failed VHPD (well, most of them went bang lets be honest) no other problems to grumble about. The elan used to snap gearchange cables periodically but then it was chipped to buggery so more my fault than anyone elses.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 18th September 11:55
PH Computer said:
although the modifications have added something like 3 percent to the Bill of Materials, Lotus has very decently decided to 'split the difference'. So expect to pay an average of 1.5 percent on top of 2011 model-year prices
That is not splitting the difference. BOM does not make up the whole of the sticker price, there is also profit margin. I am willing to bet that the 3% increase in BOM totals less than the 1.5% increase in sticker price.kambites said:
That was the question really... I got the impression from what an owner posted ahead that the Cayman had cost options for things like a different headlining?!? And that the dashboard was usually untrimmed plastic?
Personally, I've never got the "nicer interior" thing myself - interior materials just aren't on my list of priorities so I have no idea which is "better" or even what "better" means, really. Ergonomics matter (the Cayman is dire, I haven't tried the Evora but it's probably just as bad) and the primary control material matters (I can't imagine there's much difference) but I've never cared what my dashboard is made from as long as it doesn't adversely affect the driving experience with nasty reflections, etc.
I agree, but then I drive a crappy old Honda with fake leather coating, but visible dials.Personally, I've never got the "nicer interior" thing myself - interior materials just aren't on my list of priorities so I have no idea which is "better" or even what "better" means, really. Ergonomics matter (the Cayman is dire, I haven't tried the Evora but it's probably just as bad) and the primary control material matters (I can't imagine there's much difference) but I've never cared what my dashboard is made from as long as it doesn't adversely affect the driving experience with nasty reflections, etc.
The Evora is easier to H&T than a Cayman & a lot easier than a 911 (not sure I understand why!) so in a way the ergonomics are better.
The Evora gearchange was somewhere between the Porsches when I drove it & I really didn't think it was that crap for a ME car.
Biggest criticism I could level at the Evora S gearbox after driving it was that it wasn't great.
For me it wasn't difficult or obstructive, it just lacked that truly satisfying mechanical sensation that the best boxes have.
I think it's more it stands out as not being quite right because dynamically everything else is so well polished.
For me it wasn't difficult or obstructive, it just lacked that truly satisfying mechanical sensation that the best boxes have.
I think it's more it stands out as not being quite right because dynamically everything else is so well polished.
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