RE: Driven: 2012 M/Y Lotus Evora
Discussion
You can spec up a Cayman S to £75k (I just tried) - including the £1600 option to pick up from Porsche factory?!?!?!
However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
British Beef said:
You can spec up a Cayman S to £75k (I just tried) - including the £1600 option to pick up from Porsche factory?!?!?!
However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
I agree Porsches are expensive I went from an e92 M3 to a 911, and is it worth the extra? Probably not on a set of objective measures, but sometimes the heart rules the wallet.However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
broker1 said:
kambites said:
That 2.5k isn't just upgraded leather - it's all of the interior upgrades available. I think. Anyway, the Evora always has leather seats and dashboard as far as I know. The upgrade is things like door cards, centre console, footwell sides, etc.
Ditto the Cayman : ), just as you describe. Lotus obviously did some homework. You ever seen a Cayman with cloth seats?? No such thing. Seats are always leather, regardless, we're talking about dash, lower dash, foot well and door trim. 2k gets all of that in a high quality leather with great stitch work, seems the equivilent costs 2.5 on the Evora.Edited by kambites on Friday 9th September 12:28
All the other stuff I was talking about such as Alcantara wheel and painted parts etc are special order stuff... I'm not comparing that.
But I think you'll find a Cayman with full leather ticked is a nicer cabin than the Evora with full leather (or whatever package they call it) ticked, certainly judging by the photos in that article anyways. That was my original point really.
Personally, I've never got the "nicer interior" thing myself - interior materials just aren't on my list of priorities so I have no idea which is "better" or even what "better" means, really. Ergonomics matter (the Cayman is dire, I haven't tried the Evora but it's probably just as bad) and the primary control material matters (I can't imagine there's much difference) but I've never cared what my dashboard is made from as long as it doesn't adversely affect the driving experience with nasty reflections, etc.
British Beef said:
You can spec up a Cayman S to £75k (I just tried) - including the £1600 option to pick up from Porsche factory?!?!?!
However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
Sure they're both expensive, but I wouldn't call it a 'complete joke', rather its what you pay to play. And many are happy to do so.However the entry level model is £48 + leather only and it is £50k. But add a few essentials that 90% of owners do, and you are very quickly at £60k. Which is a complete joke!
People keep saying the Evora is expensive, I think the Cayman is massively expensive too.
Compare them both to say an M3 (V8), and weigh up what you get and how much you pay. It makes the M3 look like an absolute bargain!!!
Faster, better noise, more practical and more inconspicuous (if you like that) - surely a better car and a match for the more expensive 911.
Dunno what M3's have got to do with it, we're talking about two highly focused SPORTS cars here, they are very comparable and will be cross-shopped by potential buyers. If you want to bring the M3 to the table we might as well start talking about second hand GT3s etc etc
I agree to a point... that point being that if I pay £60K for a depreciating lump of metal/plastic, I'd prefer it to look and feel bespoke to an extent and not a mass-produced stack of plastic mouldings.
OTOH I don't give a rodent's posterior about 'spec'... 3 pedals, a steering wheel, a gearlever and adequate instrumentation should provide all the entertainment I need.
OTOH I don't give a rodent's posterior about 'spec'... 3 pedals, a steering wheel, a gearlever and adequate instrumentation should provide all the entertainment I need.
You're losing me now.... I thought you were saying the Evora had a better quality equivilent interior (I disagree) - now its just a lump of depreciating 'stuff' regardless of badge.
As for ergonomics being poor on the Cayman, well I don't know what this all about to be honest. Verging on nonsense. The all round visibility of the Cayman is class leading, as is luggage capacity. The positioning of the pedals is perfect for heel toe. The steering wheel and stick positioning is equal to the rest of the Porsche range (driver focused), maybe one could elaborate, although I'm begining to think these views are based on preconception rather than direct experience.
As for ergonomics being poor on the Cayman, well I don't know what this all about to be honest. Verging on nonsense. The all round visibility of the Cayman is class leading, as is luggage capacity. The positioning of the pedals is perfect for heel toe. The steering wheel and stick positioning is equal to the rest of the Porsche range (driver focused), maybe one could elaborate, although I'm begining to think these views are based on preconception rather than direct experience.
broker1 said:
As for ergonomics being poor on the Cayman, well I don't know what this all about to be honest. Verging on nonsense. The all round visibility of the Cayman is class leading, as is luggage capacity. The positioning of the pedals is perfect for heel toe. The steering wheel and stick positioning is equal to the rest of the Porsche range (driver focused), maybe one could elaborate, although I'm begining to think these views are based on preconception rather than direct experience.
The footwell is too shallow - I can't set the driving position up so I can straighten my legs at the bottom of the pedal travel, whilst still being able to actually reach the steering wheel. I appreciation that that's because I have unusually long legs though - the only modern sports car that I've driven that I find truly comfortable is the SLK. I haven't driven an Evora, but I suspect it's at least as bad as the Cayman. The Elise certainly is as standard, I had to fit spacers to mine to make it drivable.
ETA: By the way, I never say the Evora had a better interior than the Cayman if that comment was aimed at me. I couldn't care less personally, I buy cars for driving not for caressing the dashboard. However, I have seen an Evora interior and if you value interior materials, I can fully appreciate why you'd buy a Cayman over an Evora.
Edited by kambites on Friday 9th September 15:33
broker1 said:
You're losing me now.... I thought you were saying the Evora had a better quality equivilent interior (I disagree) - now its just a lump of depreciating 'stuff' regardless of badge.
As for ergonomics being poor on the Cayman, well I don't know what this all about to be honest. Verging on nonsense. The all round visibility of the Cayman is class leading, as is luggage capacity. The positioning of the pedals is perfect for heel toe. The steering wheel and stick positioning is equal to the rest of the Porsche range (driver focused), maybe one could elaborate, although I'm begining to think these views are based on preconception rather than direct experience.
I agree, the buttons for secondary controls, like aircon and even PASM, were all within a fingers reach from the gear stick, any information you might need was a glance through the steering wheel. As for ergonomics being poor on the Cayman, well I don't know what this all about to be honest. Verging on nonsense. The all round visibility of the Cayman is class leading, as is luggage capacity. The positioning of the pedals is perfect for heel toe. The steering wheel and stick positioning is equal to the rest of the Porsche range (driver focused), maybe one could elaborate, although I'm begining to think these views are based on preconception rather than direct experience.
The only thing I never liked was the slightly large steering wheel. But then I always assumed that was a relic you were supposed to drop when you specced the car up.
kambites said:
The footwell is too shallow - I can't set the driving position up so I can straighten my legs at the bottom of the pedal travel, whilst still being able to actually reach the steering wheel. I appreciation that that's because I have unusually long legs though - the only modern sports car that I've driven that I find truly comfortable is the SLK.
I haven't driven an Evora, but I suspect it's at least as bad as the Cayman. The Elise certainly is as standard, I had to fit spacers to mine to make it drivable.
errrr... why would you want to straighten your leg??, thats like page one of the 'how NOT to set up your driving position' manual.I haven't driven an Evora, but I suspect it's at least as bad as the Cayman. The Elise certainly is as standard, I had to fit spacers to mine to make it drivable.
You always want a slight bend in the leg at full pedal extension. It'll give greater control and prevent horrific injury in the case of a bad smash. The fact you talk of an SLK in the same breath as these two machines explains a huge amount to me.
broker1 said:
You're losing me now.... I thought you were saying the Evora had a better quality equivilent interior (I disagree) - now its just a lump of depreciating 'stuff' regardless of badge.
Eh? I said that if I were to invest £60K in a depreciating lump of metal, it'd better not feel like a mass produced car - so in that regard the interior is important to me - to a point. What is unimportant to me is the kit list - in fact, with most cars of today I'd wish for a delete options list.
broker1 said:
errrr... why would you want to straighten your leg??, thats like page one of the 'how NOT to set up your driving position' manual.
You always want a slight bend in the leg at full pedal extension. It'll give greater control and prevent horrific injury in the case of a bad smash. The fact you talk of an SLK in the same breath as these two machines explains a huge amount to me.
Well OK, you know what I mean. Obviously I don't want to be able to completely straighten my legs, but I prefer to have my legs under the steering wheel rather than beside it.You always want a slight bend in the leg at full pedal extension. It'll give greater control and prevent horrific injury in the case of a bad smash. The fact you talk of an SLK in the same breath as these two machines explains a huge amount to me.
I have no idea what your comment about the SLK is supposed to mean? Do you have problems with the SLK's major component ergonomics?
kambites said:
Well OK, you know what I mean. Obviously I don't want to be able to completely straighten my legs, but I prefer to have my legs under the steering wheel rather than beside it.
I have no idea what your comment about the SLK is supposed to mean? Do you have problems with the SLK's ergonomics?
I know what you wrote, not what you meant. I'm still lost as to these bad ergonomics - first time I've ever heard someone say that about a Cayman.I have no idea what your comment about the SLK is supposed to mean? Do you have problems with the SLK's ergonomics?
The reason the SLK is 'comfortable' is because its not actually a proper sports car in many peoples opinion. Its highly refined and no doubt powerful, but dynamically its frankly lost and out of its depth in this company. Sheeze, my 130 is more dynamically pure than an SLK....
_Neal_ said:
Easy now, broker1, you like your Cayman and its "swathes" of leather, that's obvious - if it doesn't fit Kambites (for whatever reason) then it doesn't fit him.
I hear ya, and thought I was having a sensible and balanced conversation (ya know based on experience). But when people start talking about 'dire ergonomics' and 'straightening' their legs you can't help but get a bit frustrated.FWIW i'm not precious about my Cayman and am well aware of its faults (RMS, non slip dif, oil consumption) but this is just typical ill-informed Porsche bashing imo.
Fair enough, although I don't think it's Porsche-bashing really (Lotus is being bashed at least as hard) - the comparisons are going to be drawn though, as Lotus and Porsche are now after some of the same customers, and Porsche do seem to polarise opinions (especially on pricing/options!).
For me, it's good to see Lotus moving their own game on, and I look forward to reading side-by-side tests of the Cayman and new Evora.
For me, it's good to see Lotus moving their own game on, and I look forward to reading side-by-side tests of the Cayman and new Evora.
broker1 said:
The reason the SLK is 'comfortable' is because its not actually a proper sports car in many peoples opinion. Its highly refined and no doubt powerful, but dynamically its frankly lost and out of its depth in this company. Sheeze, my 130 is more dynamically pure than an SLK....
I said nothing about handling, nor indeed about comfort once the car was moving. I'm talking purely about ergonomics. To my mind, both the SLK and the Cayman are flawed dynamically (although the only serious complaint I have about the Cayman as a driver's car is the steering); although I agree the Cayman is an order of magnitude better. That wasn't the point, though.
Edited by kambites on Friday 9th September 16:39
Well done Lotus. Very fond of the Evora. Every car is a mixture of strengths and weaknesses. It would appear that the Evora's complement of strengths is less appealing than some other competitors but good for them for broadening the spread with some well judged improvements. Lotus are not Porsche. And anyway just mention nikasil liners to any early Boxster or 996 Carrera owner who has been unfortunate enough to have ovalised bores and you will get much more serious accusations of under-development. At least the mechanical bits are Toyota bombproof!
_Neal_ said:
Fair enough, although I don't think it's Porsche-bashing really (Lotus is being bashed at least as hard) - the comparisons are going to be drawn though, as Lotus and Porsche are now after some of the same customers, and Porsche do seem to polarise opinions (especially on pricing/options!).
For me, it's good to see Lotus moving their own game on, and I look forward to reading side-by-side tests of the Cayman and new Evora.
Unfortunately any review will be a bit redundant as a new Cayman will be out next year I believe.For me, it's good to see Lotus moving their own game on, and I look forward to reading side-by-side tests of the Cayman and new Evora.
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