RE: Frankfurt: Land Rover DC100 Sport
Discussion
By the same token you can't say the Defender looks 'good' either so they have kept the spirit of thing 
The original was designed for a time and place long gone, the number of people who need to buy a 'brand new' defender for sheep carcass movement is a quite small, specialised market (as can bee seen in sales figures). Landrover need to move the brand forward and make money, a pastiche of a 30 year old design would be a cop out in my mind. The concept is very different from the defender however I can see some good bones in that design and it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next few years. It is clearly not aimed at the army or farmers.
I've been on pistonheads/petrolheads forums long enough (12 years now) to see anything that's a radical step forward for a popular design is generally not going to get a very good reception or much constructive criticism. This is a common problem in design as people are generally quite resistant to change, the more radical the harder it is (remember how people dissed the original iMac and iPod).
I remember the bangle haters on here (well they've not gone!) However I'd say now the general 'feel' on here is that the 5 series is a fine looking car (not all of the designs were as successful), however bangle/BMW were brave, knew they had to move BMW forward and stuck with it. Guess what BMW are selling lots of cars.
Back then Jaguar and Rover were peddling 'new' designs that were pastiches of models gone by (x-type and 75), I imagine they listened to their customer clinics and designed accordingly, with disastrous sales figures as a result. BMW pressed forward, introduced many radical design features which influenced the whole industry and which can still be seen today.
Anyway I'd say give LR a chance.
The original was designed for a time and place long gone, the number of people who need to buy a 'brand new' defender for sheep carcass movement is a quite small, specialised market (as can bee seen in sales figures). Landrover need to move the brand forward and make money, a pastiche of a 30 year old design would be a cop out in my mind. The concept is very different from the defender however I can see some good bones in that design and it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next few years. It is clearly not aimed at the army or farmers.
I've been on pistonheads/petrolheads forums long enough (12 years now) to see anything that's a radical step forward for a popular design is generally not going to get a very good reception or much constructive criticism. This is a common problem in design as people are generally quite resistant to change, the more radical the harder it is (remember how people dissed the original iMac and iPod).
I remember the bangle haters on here (well they've not gone!) However I'd say now the general 'feel' on here is that the 5 series is a fine looking car (not all of the designs were as successful), however bangle/BMW were brave, knew they had to move BMW forward and stuck with it. Guess what BMW are selling lots of cars.
Back then Jaguar and Rover were peddling 'new' designs that were pastiches of models gone by (x-type and 75), I imagine they listened to their customer clinics and designed accordingly, with disastrous sales figures as a result. BMW pressed forward, introduced many radical design features which influenced the whole industry and which can still be seen today.
Anyway I'd say give LR a chance.
Edited by hoganscrogan on Tuesday 13th September 14:45
DeadMeat_UK said:
...The Defender is a difficult one to follow, and you'll never keep all the fogies happy who don't want the world to change, but I don't think this is a million miles away as long as it has the same repair-ability, clearance, resistance to the world.
Agreed. The yellow one is Land Rover as a style icon and SUV. I don't think it works as from a cursory glance there doesn't seem a lot of space for sports stuff. This, I think, is where it goes wrong as it becomes style before substance. However this is a concept, its not a production reality, and as far as I cna see doesn't even have a roof or ragtop.The grey hard top is growing on me. As ever we need to see simplicity, ruggedness, lightness, repair-ability and modificability. I am even wondering if the strange upward looking lights could become a well loved facial feature?
JLR design team. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!
This is not a suitable replacement for the Defender.
Yes they are expensive to build as every one that comes down the production line is different. Bespoke almost. And yes some new ones do leak - occasionally. The Defender is a unique vehicle that fulfills roles that others cannot. I bought a new L200 Barbarian doublecab pickup this year instead of buying LR - why? LR do not have a comparable vehicle in their current model range. Closest in comfort would have been a Discovery or a top spec Freelander. Closest load carrier with a double cab - a Defender 130, and they aren't available with automatic transmission and cruise control. But i certainly wouldn't take my L200 places that i would go in a Defender!!
I agree that it is due for a freshen up, a redesign if necessary, but it needs to remain at its core, THE Land Rover. Look at the Mercedes Unimog, another timeless design that has a unique position in the market. Nothing else is there. LR might have been able to compete decades ago with the Forward Control models but after the military sales dried up and the Llama project rejected in favour of the Reynolds Boughton RB44 it left the door wide open for Mercedes to corner the market. Defender is an Icon but icons can evolve too. Yes the old core buyers of the agricultural and military markets have moved away, but that can be put down (IMHO) to the bad ol' days of British Leyland and the lack of investment in the brands that eventually saw the demise of Rover et al.
The Sheep and Haybales Brigade were offered until very recently a cheaper, simpler, more utility version of the defender, in fact if one drove past you, the layman might even think it was a LR product its so similar. I'm talking about the Santana from Spain. Use what ever search engine you like and look for Santana and you'll see what i mean (Santana used to build LR's under license many years ago).
Of course LR can keep the two box design, look at the Land Cruiser 70 series, a virtually unchanged design for donkeys years and only a couple of years ago available with a Euro 4 compliant engine (admitantly its a motor i fancy as its a 4.5L V8 Turbo diesel). If it had been available in the UK i'd have been tempted for sure!
If this little DC100 is to be a model in the future then perhaps its a competitor for the likes of the L200's and the Isuzu's etc and not a replacement for the Defender. Maybe its a Baby Defender like the Freelander was to the Discovery when that was launched and as the Evoque is to the FF Range Rover (I have both in my fantasy garage) now.
Please LR give us an Icon, a Defender to take us into the decades to come, a worthy successor to the one we have now which was in turn a worthy successor to the vehicle that in many places around the world is still being used daily today, not bad for a little utility vehicle built in Solihull, developed by a couple of brothers on a farm in Wales.
This is not a suitable replacement for the Defender.
bakerstreet said:
You really do have you head stuck in the sand don't you.
The Defender is very expensive to build, cramped and even the new ones leak! They also going to have problems getting current defender past 2014/15 because of the emissions. Also, I imagine are loosing lots of sales every day to the likes of the Mitsubishi's L200 and the Nissan Navara. Yes, we all know they have leaf springs, but more opeople still buy them than the Defender.
Also, you go on about the cliche Sheep and Hay bales, but I've notieced they havent released photos of the interior yet apart from one of the steering wheel. If it was all rubberised and hose down friendly this would answer all the apparent farmers who buy Defenders to move one sheep ect ect.
You can't expect Land Rover to stick to to two box design. They need to get the emisions down and one of the ways they can do do that is making it slightly more aerodynamic, so they have to slope the front end. You can see they have tried to keep the boxiness at the back.
I am a dyed in the wool LR enthusiast. I have 2 Discoveries one diesel one V8, a Range Rover Classic that i successfully rally and a Freelander that is Mrs E-B's daily driver. I have owned LR's since i was 15yrs old and will always have them and I certainly do not have my head stuck in the sand. The Defender is very expensive to build, cramped and even the new ones leak! They also going to have problems getting current defender past 2014/15 because of the emissions. Also, I imagine are loosing lots of sales every day to the likes of the Mitsubishi's L200 and the Nissan Navara. Yes, we all know they have leaf springs, but more opeople still buy them than the Defender.
Also, you go on about the cliche Sheep and Hay bales, but I've notieced they havent released photos of the interior yet apart from one of the steering wheel. If it was all rubberised and hose down friendly this would answer all the apparent farmers who buy Defenders to move one sheep ect ect.
You can't expect Land Rover to stick to to two box design. They need to get the emisions down and one of the ways they can do do that is making it slightly more aerodynamic, so they have to slope the front end. You can see they have tried to keep the boxiness at the back.
Yes they are expensive to build as every one that comes down the production line is different. Bespoke almost. And yes some new ones do leak - occasionally. The Defender is a unique vehicle that fulfills roles that others cannot. I bought a new L200 Barbarian doublecab pickup this year instead of buying LR - why? LR do not have a comparable vehicle in their current model range. Closest in comfort would have been a Discovery or a top spec Freelander. Closest load carrier with a double cab - a Defender 130, and they aren't available with automatic transmission and cruise control. But i certainly wouldn't take my L200 places that i would go in a Defender!!
I agree that it is due for a freshen up, a redesign if necessary, but it needs to remain at its core, THE Land Rover. Look at the Mercedes Unimog, another timeless design that has a unique position in the market. Nothing else is there. LR might have been able to compete decades ago with the Forward Control models but after the military sales dried up and the Llama project rejected in favour of the Reynolds Boughton RB44 it left the door wide open for Mercedes to corner the market. Defender is an Icon but icons can evolve too. Yes the old core buyers of the agricultural and military markets have moved away, but that can be put down (IMHO) to the bad ol' days of British Leyland and the lack of investment in the brands that eventually saw the demise of Rover et al.
The Sheep and Haybales Brigade were offered until very recently a cheaper, simpler, more utility version of the defender, in fact if one drove past you, the layman might even think it was a LR product its so similar. I'm talking about the Santana from Spain. Use what ever search engine you like and look for Santana and you'll see what i mean (Santana used to build LR's under license many years ago).
Of course LR can keep the two box design, look at the Land Cruiser 70 series, a virtually unchanged design for donkeys years and only a couple of years ago available with a Euro 4 compliant engine (admitantly its a motor i fancy as its a 4.5L V8 Turbo diesel). If it had been available in the UK i'd have been tempted for sure!
If this little DC100 is to be a model in the future then perhaps its a competitor for the likes of the L200's and the Isuzu's etc and not a replacement for the Defender. Maybe its a Baby Defender like the Freelander was to the Discovery when that was launched and as the Evoque is to the FF Range Rover (I have both in my fantasy garage) now.
Please LR give us an Icon, a Defender to take us into the decades to come, a worthy successor to the one we have now which was in turn a worthy successor to the vehicle that in many places around the world is still being used daily today, not bad for a little utility vehicle built in Solihull, developed by a couple of brothers on a farm in Wales.
I think it looks rather good. If anyone wants a classic Defender they can buy one - there's loads around. Someone once said that 90% of all landrovers built are still on the road, so fill your boots. You can pretty much build an old one out of new parts anyway.
But back to the concept, i can quite imagine that if the yellow bits were all sprayed olive drab, and the chrome bits were galvanised steel, and it was fitted with some mud terrains and a snorkel, it would look fairly mean. We're overdue a modern roofless landie, no?
Any photoshoppers around?
But back to the concept, i can quite imagine that if the yellow bits were all sprayed olive drab, and the chrome bits were galvanised steel, and it was fitted with some mud terrains and a snorkel, it would look fairly mean. We're overdue a modern roofless landie, no?
Any photoshoppers around?
Max_Torque said:
CY88 said:
In fact, I think its bloody great.
JLR is on a roll right now. I'll have mine in flat green with a great big union jack on the doors please.
Don't forget your handbag when you go out in it........... ;-)JLR is on a roll right now. I'll have mine in flat green with a great big union jack on the doors please.
And that was quick, Holly! Very good!
Edited by CY88 on Tuesday 13th September 16:00
I hope Land Rover truly design the thing in the spirit of the original. There was talk of using a shortened Disco/RRS ladder chassis as the basis (ETA DC100 stands for 100 inch wheelbase, which is shorter than either Disco or RRS so plausible), perhaps they're going modular like the original?
This concept has taken an unfortunately 'lifestyle' oriented slant but you could read a thought process of modularity from it. It implies that a model with no roof is on the cards, which might imply the roof is non structural like the original. It also explicitly says 'load bed', which without all the tarty crap means pickup or van variants like the original.
I think opinions could quickly change if the next concept they wheel out is a pickup, or they say that the panels are easy fit bolt on injection moulded plastic. Even better if they wheel out the original concept next to a double cab pickup with a Discovery 3 wheelbase...
ETA - Looking at the roof join on the hard top concept they're hinting at a removable rear section to create a pickup, again modularity. I personally think Land Rover are at least thinking in the right direction, hopefully that thinking will fight through the accountants and into the production model
This concept has taken an unfortunately 'lifestyle' oriented slant but you could read a thought process of modularity from it. It implies that a model with no roof is on the cards, which might imply the roof is non structural like the original. It also explicitly says 'load bed', which without all the tarty crap means pickup or van variants like the original.
I think opinions could quickly change if the next concept they wheel out is a pickup, or they say that the panels are easy fit bolt on injection moulded plastic. Even better if they wheel out the original concept next to a double cab pickup with a Discovery 3 wheelbase...
ETA - Looking at the roof join on the hard top concept they're hinting at a removable rear section to create a pickup, again modularity. I personally think Land Rover are at least thinking in the right direction, hopefully that thinking will fight through the accountants and into the production model
Edited by The Wookie on Tuesday 13th September 16:44
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