Yawn - another Porsche that hey surprise looks the same!
Discussion
It pleases me that many people don't like the 911. It is unique in it's configuration and yet so well honed it has been the benchmark against which all other sportscars have been measured for the past 40 years.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
ESOG said:
You know, I said the same thing not too long ago and I was almost ousted for it LOL becareful buddy! The Porsche police might make you dissapear! LOL
Meanwhile, all journalists and people alike would make comments about the Esprit looking dated and the same. I think the Esprit has changed over the years in an obvious and natural evolution. the 911 on the other hand, FFS!
Why do you assume that it must be the "Porsche Police" who disagree with you? The fact that a piece of design is so timeless and unique that it can be kept fresh with small changes over the years and still sell in the millions proves that Porsche are doing anything but "painting themselves into a corner".Meanwhile, all journalists and people alike would make comments about the Esprit looking dated and the same. I think the Esprit has changed over the years in an obvious and natural evolution. the 911 on the other hand, FFS!
And I have no clue what point you are trying to make regarding the Esprit?
BrewsterBear said:
It pleases me that many people don't like the 911. It is unique in it's configuration and yet so well honed it has been the benchmark against which all other sportscars have been measured for the past 40 years.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
Brewster, I think you are referencing prior posts. I have never said booo about the technical qualities of Porkers and have commented that it drives very well. I am only referring to the styling which I think is tired.What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
ermoalfa said:
I really think that Porsche are painting themselves into a corner with the 911, they cannot change too much for fear of losing their hard-core fan boys so they keep churning out models which look ugly and boring compared to other producers.
One can only yawn....
One might call it ....'Evolution' !!!!One can only yawn....
ermoalfa said:
Brewster, I think you are referencing prior posts. I have never said booo about the technical qualities of Porkers and have commented that it drives very well. I am only referring to the styling which I think is tired.
Your original post actually suggests that you believe Porsche are making a mistake by not radically altering the styling of the 911. This is clearly b******s as I'm sure the 911 will continue to be the benchmark for sportscar sales that other manufacturers dream to match. When you have such an instantly recognisable and evocative piece of design that has sold millions of units over the decades, why the hell would you possibly want to dramatically change it from a business point of view?
If you had just commented "I think the new 911 is a bit boring" then that is a fair opinion, although one that has been given on here 100's of times before and not worthy of a new thread..
ermoalfa said:
marf - Wow you have posted 16,210 posts in 90 months at first I was shocked by such a feat.
Then, "reading" your post I realise that if all your posts gave the same level of measured thinking and relevant input it was probably easy.
In all fairness you're OP was hardly ground breaking.Then, "reading" your post I realise that if all your posts gave the same level of measured thinking and relevant input it was probably easy.
BrewsterBear said:
It pleases me that many people don't like the 911. It is unique in it's configuration and yet so well honed it has been the benchmark against which all other sportscars have been measured for the past 40 years.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
On the other hand, you could well be completely wrong... on all counts. They were called tarted up beetles long before anyone ever heard of Clarkson.What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
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MGJohn said:
BrewsterBear said:
It pleases me that many people don't like the 911. It is unique in it's configuration and yet so well honed it has been the benchmark against which all other sportscars have been measured for the past 40 years.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
On the other hand, you could well be completely wrong... on all counts. They were called tarted up beetles long before anyone ever heard of Clarkson.What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
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BrewsterBear said:
MGJohn said:
BrewsterBear said:
It pleases me that many people don't like the 911. It is unique in it's configuration and yet so well honed it has been the benchmark against which all other sportscars have been measured for the past 40 years.
What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
On the other hand, you could well be completely wrong... on all counts. They were called tarted up beetles long before anyone ever heard of Clarkson.What doesn't please me is when people don't understand the 911. Any and every true petrolhead with any grasp of engineering should appreciate why the car is as it is. The configuration, the years of perfectng an imperfect ideology, evolution not revolution. You don't have to like it, indeed you probably shouldn't like it as a car or the fact it looks like every other 911 that's ever been. However, to be so ignorant as to not understand why this is the case and then to go on to proudly shout about that ignorance marks you out as a bit of plank and means you're on the wrong forum.
To blandly quote Clarkson about "the laziest designers," "the engine in the wrong place," or the most ignorant of all - "that great big pendulum hung out the back," doesn't give you any caché as a petrolhead or engineering enthusiast. It just makes you look a tool on a forum where people should celebrate such ideologies. Again, you may genuinely dislike the car and can genuinely claim that you wouldn't have one even if it was a gift and that's great, it really is, but to spout ignorance for what the car stands for demonstrates a lacking on your part, not that of Porsche.
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Couldn't have put it better.
The search for perfection in something that will ALWAYS be imperfect is doomed to failure no matter how attractive the numerous compromises in the attempt.
You may like those tarted up beetles, some of us do not. FACT!
Put me down for a Panamera though ... toot sweet.
.
Edited by MGJohn on Thursday 15th September 21:22
ermoalfa said:
Brewster, I think you are referencing prior posts. I have never said booo about the technical qualities of Porkers and have commented that it drives very well. I am only referring to the styling which I think is tired.
The 911 is generally, universally even, regarded as a classic design. Up there with the coke bottle, the Mini (car and skirt), Boeing 747, Concorde, etc… you get the picture right? It’s really as simple as that; classic designs transcend contemporary criticism in the eyes of those that behold such things. Your point/argument that it is tired would sit better on something like the various iterations of say, the BMW 5 series.MGJohn said:
Did I really say all that in so few words ~ well done me...
Couldn't have put it better.
The search for perfection in something that will ALWAYS be imperfect is doomed to failure no matter how attractive the numerous compromises in the attempt.
You may like those tarted up beetles, some of us do not. FACT!
Put me down for a Panamera though ... toot sweet.
.
Always be imperfect?Couldn't have put it better.
The search for perfection in something that will ALWAYS be imperfect is doomed to failure no matter how attractive the numerous compromises in the attempt.
You may like those tarted up beetles, some of us do not. FACT!
Put me down for a Panamera though ... toot sweet.
.
Edited by MGJohn on Thursday 15th September 21:22
Look at the lap times of a 911 GT3 RS and GT2 RS compared to it's competition.
911 turbo vs F430 vs Audi R8 V10
Current Turbo S vs 458 vs SLS
Carrera 4s vs R8
I think your argument is very poorly thought out! The various 911's in whatever guise beat the competetion in almost every scenario!
I fail to see where it's "doomed to failure"?
vinnie83 said:
MGJohn said:
Did I really say all that in so few words ~ well done me...
Couldn't have put it better.
The search for perfection in something that will ALWAYS be imperfect is doomed to failure no matter how attractive the numerous compromises in the attempt.
You may like those tarted up beetles, some of us do not. FACT!
Put me down for a Panamera though ... toot sweet.
.
Always be imperfect?Couldn't have put it better.
The search for perfection in something that will ALWAYS be imperfect is doomed to failure no matter how attractive the numerous compromises in the attempt.
You may like those tarted up beetles, some of us do not. FACT!
Put me down for a Panamera though ... toot sweet.
.
Edited by MGJohn on Thursday 15th September 21:22
Look at the lap times of a 911 GT3 RS and GT2 RS compared to it's competition.
911 turbo vs F430 vs Audi R8 V10
Current Turbo S vs 458 vs SLS
Carrera 4s vs R8
I think your argument is very poorly thought out! The various 911's in whatever guise beat the competetion in almost every scenario!
I fail to see where it's "doomed to failure"?
I've watched these things race many times. Some things which are pendulous have much appeal... No/Know what I mean? That quality in a 911 does not. Yours may be faster than mine all thing sconsidered, pendulum effect and all, but, I prefer mine...
..
It's brand and all that marketing rot. Keeping to a 'classic' design appears to work for Porsche, which is nice for them. It didn't appear to work for Jaguar where the people moaned about a dated design for old men, and we had a radical change of direction. I would love to have seen a gentle evolution for the classic XJ shape. However, the money decides, and people still buy 911s.
I think the best 911s are from the 70s though (an 80s flatnose looks cool too) - it manages to work in all sorts of weird colours as well. Plus with a 70s one you get the thrill of driving it before the handling and weight distribution was properly sorted out (Car mag had things to say about that at the time, which is probably what Clarkson and co. just can't forget about).
A thing of beauty is a joy forever and all that..
...even if it is basically a 1930s design with bits cribbed from a Chrysler Airflow and sponsored by Nazis and designed by a man who had a tank destroyer named after him in honour of his contributions to German armaments
tongue+cheek
I think the best 911s are from the 70s though (an 80s flatnose looks cool too) - it manages to work in all sorts of weird colours as well. Plus with a 70s one you get the thrill of driving it before the handling and weight distribution was properly sorted out (Car mag had things to say about that at the time, which is probably what Clarkson and co. just can't forget about).
A thing of beauty is a joy forever and all that..
...even if it is basically a 1930s design with bits cribbed from a Chrysler Airflow and sponsored by Nazis and designed by a man who had a tank destroyer named after him in honour of his contributions to German armaments
tongue+cheekThe search for perfection in something at will always be imperfect?
One assumes all other cars are now perfect then as they don't have the engine slung out back?
Whilst I own a 964, I would add that stylistically, the new versions really don't do much for me- already stated that I wouldn't want one after a 993 model, but surely, ANYONE who likes cars must realise/admit that having made it for so long, and having competed and succeeded in so many areas of motor sports- rallying, GTs, outright win at Le mans, Paris Dakar etc, etc there can't be much wrong.
Styling? Very much a personal thing, but from a technical point of view, I would have thought folk would appreciate a classic design that has endured.
One assumes all other cars are now perfect then as they don't have the engine slung out back?
Whilst I own a 964, I would add that stylistically, the new versions really don't do much for me- already stated that I wouldn't want one after a 993 model, but surely, ANYONE who likes cars must realise/admit that having made it for so long, and having competed and succeeded in so many areas of motor sports- rallying, GTs, outright win at Le mans, Paris Dakar etc, etc there can't be much wrong.
Styling? Very much a personal thing, but from a technical point of view, I would have thought folk would appreciate a classic design that has endured.
MGJohn said:
Poorly thought out you say. I have thought long and hard for about two further seconds and so...
I've watched these things race many times. Some things which are pendulous have much appeal... No/Know what I mean? That quality in a 911 does not. Yours may be faster than mine all thing sconsidered, pendulum effect and all, but, I prefer mine...
..
I have owned and driven a lot of different cars. I don't notice any adverse handling characteristics in the modern 911's I have driven! I've watched these things race many times. Some things which are pendulous have much appeal... No/Know what I mean? That quality in a 911 does not. Yours may be faster than mine all thing sconsidered, pendulum effect and all, but, I prefer mine...
..
Have you ever actually driven a 911 to criticise the handling?
vinnie83 said:
MGJohn said:
Poorly thought out you say. I have thought long and hard for about two further seconds and so...
I've watched these things race many times. Some things which are pendulous have much appeal... No/Know what I mean? That quality in a 911 does not. Yours may be faster than mine all thing sconsidered, pendulum effect and all, but, I prefer mine...
..
I have owned and driven a lot of different cars. I don't notice any adverse handling characteristics in the modern 911's I have driven! I've watched these things race many times. Some things which are pendulous have much appeal... No/Know what I mean? That quality in a 911 does not. Yours may be faster than mine all thing sconsidered, pendulum effect and all, but, I prefer mine...
..
Have you ever actually driven a 911 to criticise the handling?
I've also watched track events involving these cars and observed similar 'interesting' antics.
So, all things considered, my view of 911 is simply that they are not for me. However, I would dearly love to have a Panamera but, could never justify that level of outlay for my daily driver which have a hard life.
.
MGJohn said:
I have not driven a 'modern' 911. The last 911 I drove was back in 1982/3. However, since then I have seen a few high spec ones in the local hedgerows particularly when a long dry spell suddenly ends with a light shower. I am convinced the pendulum effect is alive and ... er, well ...;)
I've also watched track events involving these cars and observed similar 'interesting' antics.
So, all things considered, my view of 911 is simply that they are not for me. However, I would dearly love to have a Panamera but, could never justify that level of outlay for my daily driver which have a hard life.
.
Fair enough.I've also watched track events involving these cars and observed similar 'interesting' antics.
So, all things considered, my view of 911 is simply that they are not for me. However, I would dearly love to have a Panamera but, could never justify that level of outlay for my daily driver which have a hard life.
.
However, you have driven a 30 year old 911, and comment on how they are "doomed to failure" in any attempt to improve the pendulem effect.
May I suggest that you drive a modern 911 before commenting on how their attempts at improvement will inevitably fail!
Also, opinion is one thing. But you seem to be suggesting - based purely on observation - that there is a problem.
I fail to see how seeing it happen on the TV or whilst watching a race entitles you to an opinion on the handling! I have seen many mid engine and front engined cars spin!
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