Honda opens first hydrogen fuel station
Discussion
Steameh said:
Quick question, do hydrogen cars make any noise? Or would this signal the end of V8's V10's etc.
Depends on what they do with the hydrogen. A fuel cell car is just an electric car with a fancy battery that you can fill up with "liquid electricity" in the form of hydrogen. However, you can also burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, if you want to. Charlie Michael said:
I'm fully behind Hydrogen powered cars. As mentioned above, once the ineffeciency of actually creating hydrogen is ironed out, I honestly do believe it will kick off in a big way.
Not only for cars either, we'll see hydrogen powered laptops, mobile phones, etc. starting to appear. It has the potential to be the next major step in battery technology but before it can, we need to get the efficiency up to similar levels to other battery types. It will have the same advantage in them as in cars - you can instantly charge your laptop just by plugging it into a hydrogen socket. kambites said:
By "refined", you mean "breaking the laws of thermodynamics" then? Where is the energy to produce this hydrogen going to come from? The process can never be more than 100% efficient. Hydrogen cars are only "zero emission" in the same way that electric ones are.
Well that's not the fault of the car industry which is trying to become more efficient - that's down to our National Grid and Energy Companies. If they invested more in sustainable energy sources like HEP, Wind, and even Nuclear, rather than burning coal to produce electricity, then the whole circle would be complete.As it is, we should be thankful that companies like Honda are investing in technologies for our cars, even if it will take time for the energy producers to get to their level!
Dr Interceptor said:
kambites said:
By "refined", you mean "breaking the laws of thermodynamics" then? Where is the energy to produce this hydrogen going to come from? The process can never be more than 100% efficient. Hydrogen cars are only "zero emission" in the same way that electric ones are.
Well that's not the fault of the car industry which is trying to become more efficient - that's down to our National Grid and Energy Companies. If they invested more in sustainable energy sources like HEP, Wind, and even Nuclear, rather than burning coal to produce electricity, then the whole circle would be complete.As it is, we should be thankful that companies like Honda are investing in technologies for our cars, even if it will take time for the energy producers to get to their level!
As I said above, I'm waiting with interest to see the first car that uses both kinds of electricity storage - a conventional battery for short trips and a hydrogen tank/fuel cell for longer ones.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 21st September 11:47
Dr Interceptor said:
Well that's not the fault of the car industry which is trying to become more efficient - that's down to our National Grid and Energy Companies. If they invested more in sustainable energy sources like HEP, Wind, and even Nuclear, rather than burning coal to produce electricity, then the whole circle would be complete.
As it is, we should be thankful that companies like Honda are investing in technologies for our cars, even if it will take time for the energy producers to get to their level!
If we want large-scale take-up of hydrogen powered cars then we need lots more electricity than we currently have. The best long-term source of this appears to be nuclear fusion if we can get it working on a commercial scale. Full-scale prototype fusion reactors are being built and tested at the moment.As it is, we should be thankful that companies like Honda are investing in technologies for our cars, even if it will take time for the energy producers to get to their level!
If they can get fusion stable and safe, electric cars of all types become a lot more viable. 
kambites said:
Steameh said:
Quick question, do hydrogen cars make any noise? Or would this signal the end of V8's V10's etc.
Depends on what they do with the hydrogen. A fuel cell car is just an electric car with a fancy battery that you can fill up with "liquid electricity" in the form of hydrogen. However, you can also burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, if you want to. kambites said:
I wonder if it's possible to produce a fuel cell that can run on petrol or hydrogen? It would be a good way to get them out into the market place without needing to invest huge amounts on infrastructure before the demand exists.
Petrol would be tricky, but ethanol would be entirely possible. But then you have the problem of getting ethanol pumps on to forecourts.I have a basic theory for everything, everything can be achieved given enough funding.... If the car manufacturer's thought it was a viable option i would imagine it would be at least in a stage of development by now.
It would answer quite a few questions that are difficult to answer at the moment though. Interesting idea.
It would answer quite a few questions that are difficult to answer at the moment though. Interesting idea.
Dr Interceptor said:
kambites said:
I wonder if it's possible to produce a fuel cell that can run on petrol or hydrogen? It would be a good way to get them out into the market place without needing to invest huge amounts on infrastructure before the demand exists.
Petrol would be tricky, but ethanol would be entirely possible. But then you have the problem of getting ethanol pumps on to forecourts.Bearing in mind that there aren't enough rare earth metals to make batteries for all our cars- the clue's in the name- this seems a good candidate for future sustainability. But it does need energy production to be put under the microscope in the same way in order to truly call these cars "low emission".
thinfourth2 said:
And so much more convient the electricty as its only 482 miles from my front door where as i would have to travel 8 meters to reach a electric car recharge point.
Thinfourth, it's clearly a current issue but your worries could be easily put into historical context thus:Early20thCenturyChap said:
That new-fangled petrol pump is 482 miles from my front door where as i would have to travel 8 feet to reach my horse and carriage.
The main barrier is developing infrastructure, not feasibility.blearyeyedboy said:
The main barrier is developing infrastructure, not feasibility.
Of course, but that is a significant barrier. The amount of investment needed to make them plausible for most people is absolutely huge and the return on investment would, I would imagine, be measured in decades. kambites said:
Of course, but that is a significant barrier. The amount of investment needed to make them plausible for most people is absolutely huge and the return on investment would, I would imagine, be measured in decades.
Yes, that's true... which is why I used the historical example. There are newer ones too, like broadband internet... Infrastructure's hard but it can be done. It'll need to be done for electric vehicles anyway so why not get it right first time?Because many people aren't convinced that hydrogen is "right". Even if you accept that electric cars are the future (which some people don't), hydrogen still has issues as a battery technology that we currently don't have an outlook for solving - namely the inefficiency of producing and compressing it.
If other forms of electricity storage develop fast enough, hydrogen may become obsolete before it even takes off and then the people who have invested in the infrastructure for early adopters will never get a return at all.
I'm not saying they're wrong to do it, but I think it's a hell of a risk.
If other forms of electricity storage develop fast enough, hydrogen may become obsolete before it even takes off and then the people who have invested in the infrastructure for early adopters will never get a return at all.
I'm not saying they're wrong to do it, but I think it's a hell of a risk.
Interesting article that could come into play in this tech in years to come?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-1497...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-1497...
blearyeyedboy said:
Bearing in mind that there aren't enough rare earth metals to make batteries for all our cars- the clue's in the name- this seems a good candidate for future sustainability. But it does need energy production to be put under the microscope in the same way in order to truly call these cars "low emission".
Where as a fuel cell is stuffed full of cabbages and pingpong ballsblearyeyedboy said:
thinfourth2 said:
And so much more convient the electricty as its only 482 miles from my front door where as i would have to travel 8 meters to reach a electric car recharge point.
Thinfourth, it's clearly a current issue but your worries could be easily put into historical context thus:Early20thCenturyChap said:
That new-fangled petrol pump is 482 miles from my front door where as i would have to travel 8 feet to reach my horse and carriage.
The main barrier is developing infrastructure, not feasibility.But we haven't got that many battery cars on the roads so your analogy is quite wrong.
An battery car can met my needs but i am completely unique in having a comute of under 50 miles each way and having more then 1 car in the household.
I can't see anyone else in the UK having a daily commute of under 50miles and owning more then one car
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff