Honda opens first hydrogen fuel station
Discussion
Thinfourth- I won't quote everything back because I think it makes everything too difficult to read, if that's OK?
I know rare earth metals are used in fuel cells too, but I thought the quantities used were far less than those in batteries. Is that correct (anyone)? I'm happy to be corrected here if I'm wrong.
The analogy of horses and petrol stations is reasonable though. Most people have access to electricity in their homes and charging points would be a natural extension of that. Saying that something's a problem because it's many hundreds of miles from your front door isn't an argument against its introduction, no more than it was for petrol stations, electricity cables, mobile phone masts or broadband cables (to name a few) for generations in the past. Large infrastructure can be done- it's whether there are sufficient gains, sufficient will and sufficient technical advances to make it work better than electric vehicles. Whether it will or won't will be told in time.
I know rare earth metals are used in fuel cells too, but I thought the quantities used were far less than those in batteries. Is that correct (anyone)? I'm happy to be corrected here if I'm wrong.
The analogy of horses and petrol stations is reasonable though. Most people have access to electricity in their homes and charging points would be a natural extension of that. Saying that something's a problem because it's many hundreds of miles from your front door isn't an argument against its introduction, no more than it was for petrol stations, electricity cables, mobile phone masts or broadband cables (to name a few) for generations in the past. Large infrastructure can be done- it's whether there are sufficient gains, sufficient will and sufficient technical advances to make it work better than electric vehicles. Whether it will or won't will be told in time.
I thought that fuel cells can work both ways. You either put Hydrogen and Oxygen in to make Water and Electricity, or Electricity and Water to provide Hydrogen and Water.
One of the tricky bits is storing the Hydrogen, as after it is made in the fuel cell it needs to be compressed for storage. As I understood it, there is a lot of work going on to discover and develop a material, ideally a liquid that would "absorb" Hydrogen, and release it when required. (Slush Hydrogen, I think it was called.)
Effectively you would then have a battery that you could charge up at home from solar cells on the roof or a small wind turbine, which could be filled up with Hydrogen from a filling station on longer trips.
One of the tricky bits is storing the Hydrogen, as after it is made in the fuel cell it needs to be compressed for storage. As I understood it, there is a lot of work going on to discover and develop a material, ideally a liquid that would "absorb" Hydrogen, and release it when required. (Slush Hydrogen, I think it was called.)
Effectively you would then have a battery that you could charge up at home from solar cells on the roof or a small wind turbine, which could be filled up with Hydrogen from a filling station on longer trips.
The only real advantage i can see in hydrogen is you can refuel in 5 minutes.
A battery car can recharge in 30 minutes to 80%
If you are a normal person who does 300 miles a day that is a huge saving
But if you are one of the wierdos like me that does 30 miles a day and the ability to recharge at home with the occasional long trip then all it needs is a mental change from "Oh no 30 minutes how will i survive" to "Oh 30 minutes lets have a bacon butty"
A battery car can recharge in 30 minutes to 80%
If you are a normal person who does 300 miles a day that is a huge saving
But if you are one of the wierdos like me that does 30 miles a day and the ability to recharge at home with the occasional long trip then all it needs is a mental change from "Oh no 30 minutes how will i survive" to "Oh 30 minutes lets have a bacon butty"
blearyeyedboy said:
Sorry thinfourth, I think we might be on crossed wires. My main concern with electric isn't the time it takes to recharge, it's the range.
The two are equivalent though. A short range is no real issue if you can recharge anywhere and quickly. If on a hoon in the Caterham I can get through 1 tank of fuel in 100 miles, which isn't an issue as I can refuel quickly.ewenm said:
The two are equivalent though. A short range is no real issue if you can recharge anywhere and quickly. If on a hoon in the Caterham I can get through 1 tank of fuel in 100 miles, which isn't an issue as I can refuel quickly.
It is an important issue if I'm doing a 300 mile trip on a weekend though. Hooning is one thing, but if I'm travelling for a purpose then I don't want to keep stopping if I can help it.Indeed. Once battery density gets to the point where a car can do 1000 miles on a charge, will anyone care if it takes 12 hours to fully recharge? I've certainly never driven 1000 miles in a day and I suspect I'm in a massive majority there. It might not be suitable for 1% of people who cover absolutely huge mileages, but it'll be good enough to replace the vast majority of cars on the road.
blearyeyedboy said:
ewenm said:
The two are equivalent though. A short range is no real issue if you can recharge anywhere and quickly. If on a hoon in the Caterham I can get through 1 tank of fuel in 100 miles, which isn't an issue as I can refuel quickly.
It is if I'm doing a 300 mile trip on a weekend though. Hooning is one thing, but if I'm travelling for a purpose then I don't want to keep stopping if I can help it.blearyeyedboy said:
Sorry thinfourth, I think we might be on crossed wires. My main concern with electric isn't the time it takes to recharge, it's the range.
Which is very understandableThe average milage in the UK is about 8000 miles a year and judging by how concerned people are about range i can only guess the normal useage of a car is 16 times a year people go for a 500 mile drive.
So a battery car could never do this.
If you did something wierd like driving about 20 miles a day so you could recharge overnight with the odd long journey then range wouldn't be a problem if there was fast chargers in service stations.
blearyeyedboy said:
It is an important issue if I'm doing a 300 mile trip on a weekend though. Hooning is one thing, but if I'm travelling for a purpose then I don't want to keep stopping if I can help it.
Mmmmm300 mile trip in a nissian leaf
Assume 80miles per fast charge, 30 minutes per charge
You are looking at 3 stops at 30 minutes each
If motorway service stations didn't serve such bloody awful bacon rolls this wouldn't be an issue
We don't need hydrogen, we need fast chargers and better bacon butties
(By the way thinfourth, I realised my initial post may have looked more provocative than was intended. It's good to discuss things with you in a friendly way.) 
At the moment, I can jump in my car and travel at an average of 60mph (allowing for the usual mix of motorway, city and A road on my route). I'll probably stop for half an hour half way along- anyone who tells you they'll do 300 miles in one go is a bit odd.
So allowing for a decent bacon butty, a coffee and so on... I can do my trip in 5 1/2 hours.
I could have charged the Leaf in my one stop, so that makes it 6 1/2 hours. How is that progress?
Like you said, quicker chargers would solve this. But if you can give me a car with 150-200 mile range, that'd help too. I don't need the 600 mile range that some people want- by then I'd be starving and my bladder would have exploded...
At the moment, I can jump in my car and travel at an average of 60mph (allowing for the usual mix of motorway, city and A road on my route). I'll probably stop for half an hour half way along- anyone who tells you they'll do 300 miles in one go is a bit odd.
So allowing for a decent bacon butty, a coffee and so on... I can do my trip in 5 1/2 hours.
I could have charged the Leaf in my one stop, so that makes it 6 1/2 hours. How is that progress?
Like you said, quicker chargers would solve this. But if you can give me a car with 150-200 mile range, that'd help too. I don't need the 600 mile range that some people want- by then I'd be starving and my bladder would have exploded...
Exactly
What we need is an improvement in batteries in both capacity and recharge time but not a huge improvement a leaf is almost there.
What we also need is a change in attitude.
A 30 minute stop in the middle of a 300mile drive isn't a disaster, service station bacon rolls are a disaster.
Its however odd that 1 Hydrogen station and no commecially avalable cars shows that hydrogen is the future. Where as a range of battery cars and charging stations up and down the country shows that battery cars are a huge failure.
In an ideal world we can have fossil fuels, hydrogen and battery cars all sharing the roads. Just because we have 99% fossil fueled cars doesn't mean we need 99% battery or 99% hydrogen cars in the future.
I'll have a battery cars for boring stuff and a few fossil fueled ones for fun. And better bacon rolls
What we need is an improvement in batteries in both capacity and recharge time but not a huge improvement a leaf is almost there.
What we also need is a change in attitude.
A 30 minute stop in the middle of a 300mile drive isn't a disaster, service station bacon rolls are a disaster.
Its however odd that 1 Hydrogen station and no commecially avalable cars shows that hydrogen is the future. Where as a range of battery cars and charging stations up and down the country shows that battery cars are a huge failure.
In an ideal world we can have fossil fuels, hydrogen and battery cars all sharing the roads. Just because we have 99% fossil fueled cars doesn't mean we need 99% battery or 99% hydrogen cars in the future.
I'll have a battery cars for boring stuff and a few fossil fueled ones for fun. And better bacon rolls
thinfourth2 said:
Its however odd that 1 Hydrogen station and no commecially avalable cars shows that hydrogen is the future. Where as a range of battery cars and charging stations up and down the country shows that battery cars are a huge failure.
I don't quite subscribe to that view. It shows that hydrogen is a possible future, just as 1990's electric cars did.But I do think that one form is likely to dominate. The likelihood is that we'll have a VHS equivalent and a Betamax equivalent. Time will tell which is which...
Seriously! 7.5 mpg?
f
k that!
As a Honda owner, I've seen first hand how they've regressed from a top flight engineering company to one lead by lentil munching, hemp weaving, marketing knob ends.
Drove a Legend recently - awful! Nicest thing was the straight gear shift, but the Lexus GS 300 pissed all over it, even with it's mazed gear pattern, and 6 gears instead of just 5!
And don't get me started on that mess of a centre console, masquerading as a control centre for the audio, Nav, AC - a five year old would've designed something more in keeping with a circa £40K car!
Honda have been in serious decline these past 5 years, even allowing for the Civic (although the new version coming is worse inside) being a fairly undiluted concept.
If the FCX Clarity was a 7 Series/S Class equivalent for that £400 a month lease/rental cost, I'd perhaps overlook the poor economy.
That it doesn't even equate to a 5 Series, takes the biscuit, and to be honest, I'm willing Honda's demise asap, in eager anticipation of a phoenix to rise from the ashes.
Terrible thing to say, but I just cannot see anything positive in the brand - and copying Lexus (in part?) with their LF-A halo NSX revival idea smacks of not learning the lessons of the past.
IMO, Honda in Europe no longer has a marketable brand name or image capable of capturing any segment above the current Accord.
f
k that!As a Honda owner, I've seen first hand how they've regressed from a top flight engineering company to one lead by lentil munching, hemp weaving, marketing knob ends.
Drove a Legend recently - awful! Nicest thing was the straight gear shift, but the Lexus GS 300 pissed all over it, even with it's mazed gear pattern, and 6 gears instead of just 5!
And don't get me started on that mess of a centre console, masquerading as a control centre for the audio, Nav, AC - a five year old would've designed something more in keeping with a circa £40K car!
Honda have been in serious decline these past 5 years, even allowing for the Civic (although the new version coming is worse inside) being a fairly undiluted concept.
If the FCX Clarity was a 7 Series/S Class equivalent for that £400 a month lease/rental cost, I'd perhaps overlook the poor economy.
That it doesn't even equate to a 5 Series, takes the biscuit, and to be honest, I'm willing Honda's demise asap, in eager anticipation of a phoenix to rise from the ashes.
Terrible thing to say, but I just cannot see anything positive in the brand - and copying Lexus (in part?) with their LF-A halo NSX revival idea smacks of not learning the lessons of the past.
IMO, Honda in Europe no longer has a marketable brand name or image capable of capturing any segment above the current Accord.
thinfourth2 said:
A 30 minute stop in the middle of a 300mile drive isn't a disaster, service station bacon rolls are a disaster.
Hmmm. I'd prefer to stop in a field and grow my own bio fuel than go to some service stations. 
You are right though that range is a mild issue and so is cost as well as basic logistics.
I actually feel that most people favour electric as a concept.
We know the cost issues but hundreds of thousands of people have a commute or a shopping/school run that is well within the range of a current electric car.
The two issues are that many of these people park on the street meaning they cannot recharge overnight easily and many people need their one car to multitask.
I'm a fan of electric and my daily commute through London would be easy with an electric car. I also have 2 garages with electricity.
To justify an electric vehicle it also needs to be able to also do my standard journey at the weekend with the family which is 75 miles each way with driving around while there.
So all I need is a family car with a range above 150.
I've been talking to Tesla about their family wagon for 2 years now.
But, having a short commute in London and also having the facility to recharge at night without any kind of ballache is a rarity.
The biggest problem facing electric is that it is far easier for society to adjust around using their existing petrol car less or downsizing than to install an all new way of thinking and driving.
As fuel costs rise we will see the return of local shops as the demand to be able to walk daily for food returns. We'll see supermarkets and shopping centres set up shuttle run services, more home delivery etc etc. There is massive, massive elasticity in the domestic usage of petrol and this needs to be exhausted first before current EVs could become a viable alternative without their being this crucial breakthrough and advance in range and flexibility.
I could make a hydrogen generator with stuff I have in my cupboard. In fact, we made and burned hydrogen in GCSE science out of junk and a beaker of water. It's not difficult, you could easily have something in your garage that produced hydrogen using the electricity and water that is already plumbed into your house.
The problem is... it makes more sense to just add a bigger battery to the car and charge it up directly. Your electricity bills would be considerably lower for a start!
Until we have a huge surfeit of electricity, hydrogen will be the future... and will remain that way.
I think that fuel cells are most useful as a range-extender for electric cars. The hydrogen economy is a loooong way off, but it could serve its uses in small-scale applications.
The problem is... it makes more sense to just add a bigger battery to the car and charge it up directly. Your electricity bills would be considerably lower for a start!
Until we have a huge surfeit of electricity, hydrogen will be the future... and will remain that way.
I think that fuel cells are most useful as a range-extender for electric cars. The hydrogen economy is a loooong way off, but it could serve its uses in small-scale applications.
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