RE: LF-A Roadster Canned, New Supra On The Way?
Discussion
Twincam16 said:
Only because it seems the recession's hit sales of all sports cars. Back when people were buying loads of stuff they couldn't really afford, there were 350Zs and Z4s on every corner. Since the 370Z and the restyled Z4, you hardly see any.
It's depressing though - you would have thought that people would just buy cheaper, smaller sports cars, but the only ones on sale for vaguely affordable price tags, apart from the MX5, are low-volume British things - MG TF, Morgan Roadster, Caterham Seven Classic - that sort of thing. I suppose you could count the Vauxhall Tigra and Renault Wind too. Just.
What happened to cars that are just plain fun? It seems that anything 'sporty' has to be some hardcore brute/hi-tech barge controlled by umpteen computers, capable of lapping the Nurburgring in [insert time meaningless in the real world], or a 'sports-styled' hatchback-coupe thingy which, while looking good, is usually specified with dull shopping-car innards. Yes, OK, so you can get an Astra GTC VXR or a VW Scirocco R, but for some reason people are more likely to get diesel versions of either.
What's wrong with a car that isn't necessarily the fastest thing in the world, but by the same token isn't expensive by anyone's standards, and offers good honest roof-off fun that makes everything seem faster than it actually is? Or is it really the case that the MX5 has managed to dominate the market so comprehensively that there's no room for anything else?
Hopefully, if Toyota are to be believed, this is where the FT-86 production car is to step in. The brief for it has always been to be an affordable rear wheel drive sports coupe, the AE86 of the new millenium. If they follow this brief when it is produced, it's the reason I believe it will be a big hit.It's depressing though - you would have thought that people would just buy cheaper, smaller sports cars, but the only ones on sale for vaguely affordable price tags, apart from the MX5, are low-volume British things - MG TF, Morgan Roadster, Caterham Seven Classic - that sort of thing. I suppose you could count the Vauxhall Tigra and Renault Wind too. Just.
What happened to cars that are just plain fun? It seems that anything 'sporty' has to be some hardcore brute/hi-tech barge controlled by umpteen computers, capable of lapping the Nurburgring in [insert time meaningless in the real world], or a 'sports-styled' hatchback-coupe thingy which, while looking good, is usually specified with dull shopping-car innards. Yes, OK, so you can get an Astra GTC VXR or a VW Scirocco R, but for some reason people are more likely to get diesel versions of either.
What's wrong with a car that isn't necessarily the fastest thing in the world, but by the same token isn't expensive by anyone's standards, and offers good honest roof-off fun that makes everything seem faster than it actually is? Or is it really the case that the MX5 has managed to dominate the market so comprehensively that there's no room for anything else?
The idea with the Subaru version is to sell that towards the higher end of the market I believe, along with an STI version and the Toyota to be around the MX5 price range.
I like the Toyota product core values and a new supra can succeed as long as they keep it price competitive. I would assume that their natural target or competitor would be the GTR which has a huge cult following in theri home market and has shown people will spend the money even in this market if they are given a lot of relative performance value for their dollar. I would like to see something a little more raw for the same money as the GTR
peterattheboro said:
Whilst the LFA is an astonishing car I have to agree. At over £300,000 it's far far far too expensive when you can have an arguably better Nissan GTR Spec V for £100k
I'd wager you've never driven either so wouldn't actually know and you basing your judgment on a 'ring time' only???I hope T bring out a nw supra, the previous one was pretty good
Edited by F2CSL on Wednesday 21st September 15:53
Gaz. said:
thewheelman said:
Obviously a Supra, if another Supra is to happen, as it's Toyota i would bet that it'll be a hybrid & in the £80k area. So out of reach for most people anyway. Also the Supra was never a big seller, hence it ceased production. How many of these people excited by a new Supra will turn in to actual buyers? Very few i would guess, where as a hot CT200h would sell in bigger numbers & mean larger profits for Toyota.
Of 42,000 cars worldwide, the UK was given an allocation of 600 cars but this went up to 680 and was withdrawn from Europe in 1996 because of emmisions. It was withdrawn from the USA in 1998 after 20,000 cars sold and ceased production in 2002.DanDC5 said:
Hopefully, if Toyota are to be believed, this is where the FT-86 production car is to step in. The brief for it has always been to be an affordable rear wheel drive sports coupe, the AE86 of the new millenium. If they follow this brief when it is produced, it's the reason I believe it will be a big hit.
The idea with the Subaru version is to sell that towards the higher end of the market I believe, along with an STI version and the Toyota to be around the MX5 price range.
If it's anywhere near the price of an MX-5, I'll eat my hat. I reckon nearer £25k for the base model (in the UK at least). At that price, it still undercuts most of the competition, but is not the affordable RWD sports car that we want. The idea with the Subaru version is to sell that towards the higher end of the market I believe, along with an STI version and the Toyota to be around the MX5 price range.
As for the new Supra, this ha been promised repeatedly since the last one finished in 2002, and still nothing. Don't hold your breath.
thewheelman said:
Obviously a Supra, if another Supra is to happen, as it's Toyota i would bet that it'll be a hybrid & in the £80k area. So out of reach for most people anyway. Also the Supra was never a big seller, hence it ceased production. How many of these people excited by a new Supra will turn in to actual buyers? Very few i would guess, where as a hot CT200h would sell in bigger numbers & mean larger profits for Toyota.
It was a very good seller in Japan, and finished selling 9 years after it was launched there. Apparently they decided not to carry on selling them here after '96, due to stricter emissions regulations. Mores the pity, as the '98 on VVTi really was a very well sorted, and extremely quick GT.Edited by thewheelman on Wednesday 21st September 12:59
Gaz. said:
thewheelman said:
Gaz. said:
thewheelman said:
Obviously a Supra, if another Supra is to happen, as it's Toyota i would bet that it'll be a hybrid & in the £80k area. So out of reach for most people anyway. Also the Supra was never a big seller, hence it ceased production. How many of these people excited by a new Supra will turn in to actual buyers? Very few i would guess, where as a hot CT200h would sell in bigger numbers & mean larger profits for Toyota.
Of 42,000 cars worldwide, the UK was given an allocation of 600 cars but this went up to 680 and was withdrawn from Europe in 1996 because of emmisions. It was withdrawn from the USA in 1998 after 20,000 cars sold and ceased production in 2002.http://pistonheads.com/sales/3235462.htm
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2967522.htm
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2967543.htm
Twincam16 said:
DanDC5 said:
Frimley111R said:
You think? I doubt it if only because Toyota has the most yawn inducing range and brand out there. It'll start them back on hte right track but it can't turn around Toyota's sports car fortunes just like that. How many 370Zs do you see on the roads for example? A few but only a few.
Despite my slight pessimism I am glad to see them sorting their oh-so-dull-a-dishwater range and brand out.
370's not that many, see quite a few 350's though. Actually come to think of it, I think I've seen more GTR's than 370o's....Despite my slight pessimism I am glad to see them sorting their oh-so-dull-a-dishwater range and brand out.
It's depressing though - you would have thought that people would just buy cheaper, smaller sports cars, but the only ones on sale for vaguely affordable price tags, apart from the MX5, are low-volume British things - MG TF, Morgan Roadster, Caterham Seven Classic - that sort of thing. I suppose you could count the Vauxhall Tigra and Renault Wind too. Just.
What happened to cars that are just plain fun? It seems that anything 'sporty' has to be some hardcore brute/hi-tech barge controlled by umpteen computers, capable of lapping the Nurburgring in [insert time meaningless in the real world], or a 'sports-styled' hatchback-coupe thingy which, while looking good, is usually specified with dull shopping-car innards. Yes, OK, so you can get an Astra GTC VXR or a VW Scirocco R, but for some reason people are more likely to get diesel versions of either.
What's wrong with a car that isn't necessarily the fastest thing in the world, but by the same token isn't expensive by anyone's standards, and offers good honest roof-off fun that makes everything seem faster than it actually is? Or is it really the case that the MX5 has managed to dominate the market so comprehensively that there's no room for anything else?
Gaz. said:
carl0s said:
EDLT said:
They sold all of them, iirc.
Wasn't the Supra in the same price range as a Porsche when it was new?
About £42k in 1996 I think, so quite an expensive car.Wasn't the Supra in the same price range as a Porsche when it was new?
Had no idea the 944 was so expensive! Was it the turbo? Nowadays, you can find them for around $2500 U.S., with really good ones being around 5 grand, so around 3,000 GBP.ZesPak said:
Doesn't matter, if I design & build a car myself taking years for the product, then charge 100k for the finished product, it'll be vastly inferior to cars costing 50k, therefore being overpriced.
Doesn't matter if it actually cost me 200k to build it.
Thing is, the LFA wasn't rated vastly inferior to the likes of the 599 GTO (which certainly doesn't cost half). You're going to have to define what it is that makes one car inferior to another. On-paper stats or lap times around a track most will never realize aren't going to be enough. Doesn't matter if it actually cost me 200k to build it.
Your assumption is that Toyota's investment in the project ends at LFA production. How do you know this? You are also leaving out the concept of volume. If you build 3 such cars, you will have made a tidy profit and the car can be said to be "worth it," even if it is indeed rated inferior to other cars. A GTO isn't multiple times tangibly better than a GT-R, yet Ferrari have sold every one. Then they went on to build another batch of even more expensive Apertas. The market decides a product's worth and the market has spoken: The GTO is worth the money. Similarly for the LFA.
Guibo said:
Thing is, the LFA wasn't rated vastly inferior to the likes of the 599 GTO (which certainly doesn't cost half). You're going to have to define what it is that makes one car inferior to another. On-paper stats or lap times around a track most will never realize aren't going to be enough.
Your assumption is that Toyota's investment in the project ends at LFA production. How do you know this? You are also leaving out the concept of volume. If you build 3 such cars, you will have made a tidy profit and the car can be said to be "worth it," even if it is indeed rated inferior to other cars. A GTO isn't multiple times tangibly better than a GT-R, yet Ferrari have sold every one. Then they went on to build another batch of even more expensive Apertas. The market decides a product's worth and the market has spoken: The GTO is worth the money. Similarly for the LFA.
Don't get me wrong, I love the LF-A, I actually posted exactly the same thing you said earlier.Your assumption is that Toyota's investment in the project ends at LFA production. How do you know this? You are also leaving out the concept of volume. If you build 3 such cars, you will have made a tidy profit and the car can be said to be "worth it," even if it is indeed rated inferior to other cars. A GTO isn't multiple times tangibly better than a GT-R, yet Ferrari have sold every one. Then they went on to build another batch of even more expensive Apertas. The market decides a product's worth and the market has spoken: The GTO is worth the money. Similarly for the LFA.
RED_P47 said:
Think some one pi##ed off Mr Toyoda, it looks as if Toyota is very serious about re entering the performance sphere.
check out this monster; there's a pic of the spec sheet (the reg number is registered to Toyota Motorsport in Cologne, Germany) these pics were removed from most websites at the request of ToMoCo over a month ago.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/09/lexus-l...
and also here, these pics are widely available as the car was spotted less than a week ago.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/138655/lexus-ls-track-...
there are some newson this one: 5L V8, 650BHP, 710Nmcheck out this monster; there's a pic of the spec sheet (the reg number is registered to Toyota Motorsport in Cologne, Germany) these pics were removed from most websites at the request of ToMoCo over a month ago.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/09/lexus-l...
and also here, these pics are widely available as the car was spotted less than a week ago.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/138655/lexus-ls-track-...
http://www.autoevolution.com/news-image/scoop-lexu...
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