"Heel and toeing"

[RobM77]

olly22n said:

RobM77 said:

doogz said:

RobM77 said:

bicycleshorts said:

Mr2Mike said:

Double de-clutching is utterly pointless on a typical modern car unless it has a broken gearbox. It just slows down changes for no benefit. If you are driving something antique with a crash box, then it is a mandatory skill.

If you're braking (hard) anyway, gear-change speed would be one of my lowest priorities. Learning how to do it means you can jump into anything. Mk1 Escort in my case.

H&T does not slow down gearchanges, even slightly.

No-one said it did.

See bold text above.

He said double de-clutching, not H&T

My mistake. Busy day at work so I scan read it and assumed the whole thread was about H&T. Guilty as charged!

DDC does indeed slow down gearchanges and yes, it isn't necessary on a modern car. For H&T though, I stand by what I wrote above.

[Mr2Mike]

bicycleshorts said:

If you're braking (hard) anyway, gear-change speed would be one of my lowest priorities. Learning how to do it means you can jump into anything. Mk1 Escort in my case.

The Mk1 Escort has a synchromesh box. If it's knackered, and you don't want to fix it then fair enough, but if it was working it simply shouldn't need double de-clutching. As for speed of change, what if you aren't braking but are changing down for more acceleration? If speed didn't matter than, why would you be changing down?

[Mr2Mike]

RobM77 said:

DDC does indeed slow down gearchanges and yes, it isn't necessary on a modern car. For H&T though, I stand by what I wrote above.

If anything H&T could even speed up downshifts, especially if the synchro is a bit tired or the clutch is dragging a little.

[RobM77]

Mr2Mike said:

RobM77 said:

DDC does indeed slow down gearchanges and yes, it isn't necessary on a modern car. For H&T though, I stand by what I wrote above.

If anything H&T could even speed up downshifts, especially if the synchro is a bit tired or the clutch is dragging a little.

Certainly. If you rev match correctly you just put the gear in and use the clutch as a switch. Without rev-matching (something I haven't done since my test aged 17 and the week after it), presumably you have to slip the clutch a bit, taking up time (and clutch life!).

[TommyBuoy]

As the S2000 has such a high reving engine I find myself rev-matching on block downshifts as it does slip the clutch trying to make it smooth if I don't.

I've tried heel & toeing but can't get it smooth enough so I just leave enough time a space to slow on the brakes only.

Any tips for improving H&T?

[JonnyFive]

doogz said:

Practice. And only shift one gear at a time.

Just that, practice.

Also, as above.. One gear at a time as the revs needed will be less, so easier to blip.

Is the S2000 an electronic throttle? I've found electronic throttles are no where near accurate enough really.

[TommyBuoy]

JonnyFive said:

Just that, practice.

Also, as above.. One gear at a time as the revs needed will be less, so easier to blip.

Is the S2000 an electronic throttle? I've found electronic throttles are no where near accurate enough really.

Yeah, it's an 2006 - pre this they weren't.

The throttle response is quick enough, it's just I'm not sure it's much quicker to H&T than just give a little more room (e.g. rev-match earlier, the redline is so high it might affect the overall 'speed' of the change that much).

[bicycleshorts]

Mr2Mike said:

The Mk1 Escort has a synchromesh box. If it's knackered, and you don't want to fix it then fair enough, but if it was working it simply shouldn't need double de-clutching. As for speed of change, what if you aren't braking but are changing down for more acceleration? If speed didn't matter than, why would you be changing down?

The time difference between the two is negligible.

As doogz said earlier, double declutching can make changing gear easier.

[RobM77]

TommyBuoy said:

Any tips for improving H&T?

• If you're learning H&T, try doing it without the brakes at first (as per IAM). This will enable you to get used to the engine response.

• It's often easier to engage a gear if the revs are slightly higher, so aim to blip slightly above the necessary revs and engage just as they pass the right point.

• Do one gear at a time at first, so you can learn the spacings and the blips are smaller.

• In cars with heavy flywheels/rotational mass, laggy DBW throttles or clutch delay valves; be prepared to alter your timing. In my 320d I find that most blips use the turbo, so because of the turbo lag and lazy engine response I blip fractionally before I dip the clutch, and hold the throttle down longer. Even in my previous daily driver, a Z4 Coupé, I had to do this. In my Elise, the H&T is timed as you'd expect, with the blip whilst the clutch is down.

• Be prepared for servo brakes to spoil the party. In some modern cars it's unbelievably hard to maintain steady braking whilst H&Ting.

[bicycleshorts]

RobM77 said:

• Be prepared for servo brakes to spoil the party. In some modern cars it's unbelievably hard to maintain steady braking whilst H&Ting.

This. Practically impossible in the parents' 57 Astra.

[JonnyFive]

I found an easy way to learn was just to match the revs whilst the clutch is down, and then do the braking when in the lower gear.. Helps to know how much blip you need to do, then just start adding it in with the braking.

[TommyBuoy]

JonnyFive said:

I found an easy way to learn was just to match the revs whilst the clutch is down, and then do the braking when in the lower gear.. Helps to know how much blip you need to do, then just start adding it in with the braking.

This is what I do now anyway as it makes it so much smoother, it's just keeping the braking force constant that's the issue.

Will be practicing at lunch I reckon.

[J4CKO]

monthefish said:

james_gt3rs said:

J4CKO said:

I, when I was younger thought I had invented a technique for blipping the throttle...

Don't laugh, he should patent the idea - he'll make millions!!!

Lol, I feel a bit silly now, I got frsutrated that when changing down I couldnt brake and blip at the same time so spent a little time experimenting and got it so it was mostly flawless, I even experimented with braking with the left foot instead of the right but never perfected that one, it just involved a lot of very hard braking or a wildly revving engine.

AT the time I didnt have a clue what hell and toe was, didnt think that was what I was doing, I felt a little bit guilty doing it as it went against what I had been taught and seemed a bit naughty almost, I though tit was perhaps a bad habit I had got into but 9it was so damn compelling to do as the main benefit was that the downchange (in a mk1 1600 GTI Golf with an Ansa exhaust sounded so satisfyingly racy I just had to do it my other amusement at the time was making a manual car sound like an auto by slipping the clutch and revving the engine, I thought it sounded quite convincing.


Saab is fast with 250 bhp (ok, not PGH fast but usefully quick) but it doesnt have much of an engine note so cant easily hear the revs, the pedals dont feel natrually geared towards it but will try again (on a quiet road).

SO, in my tradition of doing conventional things that loads of people do and thinking they are my idea, does anyone else rev match without heel and toeing, the slow version where you blip it with your right foot fully on the throttle before braking ? I do and its just not as good.

[RenesisEvo]

J4CKO said:

does anyone else rev match without heel and toeing, the slow version where you blip it with your right foot fully on the throttle before braking ?

I do because that's the IAM way. Well, it's on brake, off brake, clutch in, gear change, blip of throttle and release clutch. I want to learn H&T but I don't have the right car for it at the moment.

[JonnyFive]

J4CKO said:

SO, in my tradition of doing conventional things that loads of people do and thinking they are my idea, does anyone else rev match without heel and toeing, the slow version where you blip it with your right foot fully on the throttle before braking ? I do and its just not as good.

Did you read the few posts above yours?

[J4CKO]

RenesisEvo said:

J4CKO said:

does anyone else rev match without heel and toeing, the slow version where you blip it with your right foot fully on the throttle before braking ?

I do because that's the IAM way. Well, it's on brake, off brake, clutch in, gear change, blip of throttle and release clutch. I want to learn H&T but I don't have the right car for it at the moment.

Ok, makes sense but why is it whenever I think of IAM it puts me off a bit and makes me think of a bloke smoking a pipe ?

[J4CKO]

JonnyFive said:

J4CKO said:

SO, in my tradition of doing conventional things that loads of people do and thinking they are my idea, does anyone else rev match without heel and toeing, the slow version where you blip it with your right foot fully on the throttle before braking ? I do and its just not as good.

Did you read the few posts above yours?

No, I only read my own posts, its best that way, they are brilliant and dont wind me up

[Sf_Manta]

I do it a fair bit in the E30, Pedels are pretty much perfect with the right amount of assist from the brake servo
That and i get a few pops from the exhaust on the ol' M20

[RenesisEvo]

J4CKO said:

Ok, makes sense but why is it whenever I think of IAM it puts me off a bit and makes me think of a bloke smoking a pipe ?

It's not an uncommon perception, and I've had cause to believe it! However there are plenty of IAMers who are enthusiastic about performance cars and driving quickly. Going O/T here but just to round this off - I think everyone could learn something if they looked past the image they project.

I hope one day I can H&T / double-de-clutch with the best of them. No idea if it's been linked already (no Youtube at work), but there's a video on Youtube of Mike Rockenfeller driving a GT Porsche around Sebring, the H&T on that is outstanding - even when going from 6th to 1st. Inspiring.

[JonnyFive]

J4CKO said:

No, I only read my own posts, its best that way, they are brilliant and dont wind me up

Excellent

I do the same as you do when in cars I can't really H&T.