RE: Video: Viper ACR's Rapid 'Ring Time

[Dagnut]

LongLiveTazio said:

Didn't specifically mean you being anti-Viper, just some of the other posts. Minute an American car does anything good on this site there's always loads of people chiming in about how it must be dodgy, or won't handle, or the interior's crap, or... All cars are about compromise, that's why we don't all like the same thing? Doesn't diminish the achievement.

I think the criteria is simply that the ACR is a production car. I personally don't think the Gumpert is. And although you say 700bhp when it was announced it was "up to 800", which is what I mean about a single example being fiddled with. It's inconsistent, it's not like there is a constant production specification.

IMO the Gumpert should be compared to Radicals: ostensibly racing cars that can be made road legal but would never be used on it and have huge race-car compromises. The Viper, LF-A, etc. are the other way on, road cars focused for track work when you fancy it.

That's fair enough but both the LFA nurburg edition and ACR modified version of road cars for the track.. both make compromises over the standard editions..and both cars were factory tested their with full factory teams with the specific goal of setting a fast time at that track..repeated runs ..tyre changes...suspension tweaks...
the Gumpert is a road car its road legal
But none of the tests are done in a controlled environment...there are so many grey areas...did they use the showroom tyres..was the ecu tweeked for the run...blah blah blah...so who can confirm any record really? So what your saying is you trust the people at dodge to be completely transparent but Gumpert could of supplied Sport Auto with a rigged car with high boost
When people talk about type approval is the Gumpert road legal in the states?

Edited by Dagnut on Thursday 29th September 12:15

[ViperDave]

Dagnut said:

That's fair enough but both the LFA nurburg edition and ACR modified version of road cars for the track.. both make compromises over the standard editions..and both cars were factory tested their with full factory teams with the specific goal of setting a fast time at that track..repeated runs ..tyre changes...suspension tweaks...
the Gumpert is a road car its road legal
But none of the tests are done in a controlled environment...there are so many grey areas...did they use the showroom tyres..was the ecu tweeked for the run...blah blah blah...so who can confirm any record really? So what your saying is you trust the people at dodge to be completely transparent but Gumpert could of supplied Sport Auto with a rigged car with high boost
When people talk about type approval is the Gumpert road legal in the states?

Edited by Dagnut on Thursday 29th September 12:15

well the ACR was taken from a dealer forecourt, you could have brought it a couple of months ago and they would have had to use a different one, it wasn't a factory special.

The Gumpert being road legal in the US and anywhere for that matter is the same as the Radical, yes you can get a single vehicle licenced for the road in the USA in one particular state its what all the custom builders we see on TV will use, the same as you can here with IVA, but a production car will be type approved, in the US it will have to meet the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and have the FMVSS compliance plate which the ACR does.

[PascalBuyens]

LuS1fer said:

Dagnut said:

LuS1fer said:

Seems to hold the Laguna Seca record too:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/

When you say "too" you're implying it has the ring record..it doesn't

I think we've already been through that. Maybe it should be road-legal in all countries and I doubt those ahead of the Viper are road-legal in the US which I would guess is what they're really asserting. As far as I know, this ACR was sent back to scalp the ZR1 on behalf of Viper owners everywhere - the muscle car wars never really ended in that respect.

And within a few weeks/months a ZR-1 will undoubtedly be back to claim the record back... Z06's time decreased with a substantial margin after the aero mods and sticky tyres (IIRC Michelin instead of Bridgestones) were added. If they do have that same effect on the ZR-1, I could see it coming close or even diving under 7 minutes...

[fatboy18]

Game on

[LongLiveTazio]

Dagnut said:

That's fair enough but both the LFA nurburg edition and ACR modified version of road cars for the track.. both make compromises over the standard editions..and both cars were factory tested their with full factory teams with the specific goal of setting a fast time at that track..repeated runs ..tyre changes...suspension tweaks...
the Gumpert is a road car its road legal
But none of the tests are done in a controlled environment...there are so many grey areas...did they use the showroom tyres..was the ecu tweeked for the run...blah blah blah...so who can confirm any record really? So what your saying is you trust the people at dodge to be completely transparent but Gumpert could of supplied Sport Auto with a rigged car with high boost
When people talk about type approval is the Gumpert road legal in the states?

Edited by Dagnut on Thursday 29th September 12:15

Think you're getting the wrong end of the stick here. I'm not saying Gumpert have 'rigged' anything, nor that Dodge is any more or less transparent than any other manufacturer. What I am saying is that it is not a production car. Gumpert make a single model which is in a permanent state of development, so any specific 'Ring changes to what effectively is a testbed vehicle may not actually be what a customer has delivered. The Viper used for this run came off a forecourt and is exactly the same as the other 400-odd that were made on the same production line, customer options notwithstanding. It's a *customer car*. The Gumpert wasn't.

The other side of this is that the ACR has records elsewhere: Laguna Seca, Sebring, etc. Who else has tested the Gumpert? Where else has it set a time? Nobody and nowhere as far as I can see, despite it being 'launched' two years ago. It's vaporware.

FWIW I felt exactly the same about the light blue M600 that was 'reviewed' everywhere - it was effectively a prototype and had the drum beaten by British mags heralding another giant-killing British supercar. Great - now let's see actual customer cars delivered and then tested by people in other countries so that there is a degree of impartiality and consensus instead of natural bias.

[Dagnut]

ViperDave said:

well the ACR was taken from a dealer forecourt, you could have brought it a couple of months ago and they would have had to use a different one, it wasn't a factory special.

The Gumpert being road legal in the US and anywhere for that matter is the same as the Radical, yes you can get a single vehicle licenced for the road in the USA in one particular state its what all the custom builders we see on TV will use, the same as you can here with IVA, but a production car will be type approved, in the US it will have to meet the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and have the FMVSS compliance plate which the ACR does.

I didn't say it was a factory special...I said it had a factory team behind it...so it's the fastest production car that has US type approval?

[LongLiveTazio]

Worth pointing out that I believe the Apollo has EU-wide small-scale approval. Lots of cars can't get US type approval but you wouldn't consider them to be necessarily outlandish.

[Destructo]

I did a short write-up before getting into the meat of this thread. Be curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on it. Thanks in advance!

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110929/CARNEWS/1...

[ZeeTacoe]

Destructo said:

I did a short write-up before getting into the meat of this thread. Be curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on it. Thanks in advance!

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110929/CARNEWS/1...

The Radical is less road legal than the Dauer 962s , so that sticks the viper in fifth and the radical second behind a 22 year old Porsche.

[Destructo]

ZeeTacoe said:

The Radical is less road legal than the Dauer 962s , so that sticks the viper in fifth and the radical second behind a 22 year old Porsche.

The Dauer is a new one by me. I'll have to look up that one and do some more research! Thanks for the info!

[ViperDave]

Destructo said:

I did a short write-up before getting into the meat of this thread. Be curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on it. Thanks in advance!

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110929/CARNEWS/1...

Well I agree with you regarding the ECWVTA and NHTSA being the benchmark of a production vehicle but I do not agree that the UK SVA represents holding ECWVTA as stated in your article. SVA and IVA(its replacement) are methods of registering a SINGLE vehicle in the UK whilst avoiding whole vehicle TYPE approval. Ie a one off, not a production car, in American speak it is like a hot rod shop/custom builder meeting local state registration requirements rather than all the crash test and emission standards for NHTSA.

As for specific points raised against the ACR re tyres, the modified 5th gear and aero. well they are all standard parts fitted to all ACR's in 2010. Arguing that the ACR is modified or a factory special is a bit stupid when the car in question was taken from the forecourt of Tomball Dodge. The exact car has been for sale to joe bloggs for 6 moths or more, pick up drive home tonight etc.

[Destructo]

To me the Dauer wouldn't fall under a production car (by my definition) because it's based on the Porsche.

However, did the Sportwagen get approval through an SVA or TVA?

[Destructo]

ViperDave said:

Well I agree with you regarding the ECWVTA and NHTSA being the benchmark of a production vehicle but I do not agree that the UK SVA represents holding ECWVTA as stated in your article. SVA and IVA(its replacement) are methods of registering a SINGLE vehicle in the UK whilst avoiding whole vehicle TYPE approval. Ie a one off, not a production car, in American speak it is like a hot rod shop/custom builder meeting local state registration requirements rather than all the crash test and emission standards for NHTSA.

As for specific points raised against the ACR re tyres, the modified 5th gear and aero. well they are all standard parts fitted to all ACR's in 2010. Arguing that the ACR is modified or a factory special is a bit stupid when the car in question was taken from the forecourt of Tomball Dodge. The exact car has been for sale to joe bloggs for 6 moths or more, pick up drive home tonight etc.

Thanks for the clarification on the ECWVTA and the SVA and IVA. We here in the States can register one-offs under a "kit-car" and it sounds like it would be the SVA or IVA equivalent instead of the ECWVTA. Would there be an ECWVTA equivalent then to the SVA/IVA? Would it be the Type Vehicle Approval (for more than just the one-offs)?

I have a call into the Chrysler boys to see what there definition of "production car" is and maybe that'll help clear things up. I'll make sure to keep you boys and girls updated.

[ViperDave]

Destructo said:

ViperDave said:

Well I agree with you regarding the ECWVTA and NHTSA being the benchmark of a production vehicle but I do not agree that the UK SVA represents holding ECWVTA as stated in your article. SVA and IVA(its replacement) are methods of registering a SINGLE vehicle in the UK whilst avoiding whole vehicle TYPE approval. Ie a one off, not a production car, in American speak it is like a hot rod shop/custom builder meeting local state registration requirements rather than all the crash test and emission standards for NHTSA.

As for specific points raised against the ACR re tyres, the modified 5th gear and aero. well they are all standard parts fitted to all ACR's in 2010. Arguing that the ACR is modified or a factory special is a bit stupid when the car in question was taken from the forecourt of Tomball Dodge. The exact car has been for sale to joe bloggs for 6 moths or more, pick up drive home tonight etc.

Thanks for the clarification on the ECWVTA and the SVA and IVA. We here in the States can register one-offs under a "kit-car" and it sounds like it would be the SVA or IVA equivalent instead of the ECWVTA. Would there be an ECWVTA equivalent then to the SVA/IVA? Would it be the Type Vehicle Approval (for more than just the one-offs)?

I have a call into the Chrysler boys to see what there definition of "production car" is and maybe that'll help clear things up. I'll make sure to keep you boys and girls updated.

ECWVTA is, European whole vehicle type approval, and is broadly similar to FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) in the US. A car with ECWVTA and a Certificate of Conformity (CoC) can be registered anywhere in Europe with no further inspections or tests the same a a US car can be titled in any state with the FMVSS plate/sticker.

IVA/SVA is equivalent to your one off kit car approval, each car is assessed individually and issued with a one off pass certificate that can be used to register that vehicle in the UK.

[Dagnut]

ViperDave said:

Destructo said:

ViperDave said:

Well I agree with you regarding the ECWVTA and NHTSA being the benchmark of a production vehicle but I do not agree that the UK SVA represents holding ECWVTA as stated in your article. SVA and IVA(its replacement) are methods of registering a SINGLE vehicle in the UK whilst avoiding whole vehicle TYPE approval. Ie a one off, not a production car, in American speak it is like a hot rod shop/custom builder meeting local state registration requirements rather than all the crash test and emission standards for NHTSA.

As for specific points raised against the ACR re tyres, the modified 5th gear and aero. well they are all standard parts fitted to all ACR's in 2010. Arguing that the ACR is modified or a factory special is a bit stupid when the car in question was taken from the forecourt of Tomball Dodge. The exact car has been for sale to joe bloggs for 6 moths or more, pick up drive home tonight etc.

Thanks for the clarification on the ECWVTA and the SVA and IVA. We here in the States can register one-offs under a "kit-car" and it sounds like it would be the SVA or IVA equivalent instead of the ECWVTA. Would there be an ECWVTA equivalent then to the SVA/IVA? Would it be the Type Vehicle Approval (for more than just the one-offs)?

I have a call into the Chrysler boys to see what there definition of "production car" is and maybe that'll help clear things up. I'll make sure to keep you boys and girls updated.

ECWVTA is, European whole vehicle type approval, and is broadly similar to FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) in the US. A car with ECWVTA and a Certificate of Conformity (CoC) can be registered anywhere in Europe with no further inspections or tests the same a a US car can be titled in any state with the FMVSS plate/sticker.

IVA/SVA is equivalent to your one off kit car approval, each car is assessed individually and issued with a one off pass certificate that can be used to register that vehicle in the UK.

What kind of approval has the Gumpert?

[Destructo]

Dagnut said:

What kind of approval has the Gumpert?

Here in the States it meets the NHTSA garbage. I'm not sure where it qualifies across the pond. Perhaps a VTA?

[ViperDave]

Destructo said:

Here in the States it meets the NHTSA garbage. I'm not sure where it qualifies across the pond. Perhaps a VTA?

Anything to support that claim? everything that i can find points to ultra low volume exemptions being granted giving them a bypass to FMVSS (ie similar to IVA in the UK) Although i could only find web/mag articles which who knows the quality of the research

[Destructo]

ViperDave said:

Anything to support that claim? everything that i can find points to ultra low volume exemptions being granted giving them a bypass to FMVSS (ie similar to IVA in the UK) Although i could only find web/mag articles which who knows the quality of the research

You know those automotive journalists, always slacking

I'll see what I can dig up for you on it.

[ViperDave]

From what i can make out a max of 10 per year are shipped to Evolution Motorsports Tempe AZ where they undergo final assembly (engine and drive-train) and performance validation before registration as a "kit car" before shipping off to the dealer European Touch in CA.

Of course this could all be out of date info and they have actually submitted several of their $600k cars for the NHTSA to smash into a wall so they can get that FMVSS sticker.

[Destructo]

Good information ViperDave. I haven't called the guys in AZ lately, but i doubt you'd make stuff up. I haven't been able to get a hold of the Dodge boys to get their explicit definition of a production car, but I think we are all hashing it out here, which is great stuff!